coolchinchilla

About a week ago I had a lab who wasn't looking good, so I stressed
everyone in the tank and put him in a hospital bucket. I put him in
the main tank yesterday night. He looks like he's doing just fine. :-)

Yesterday for roll call, one of my blue fish was missing. When I
did see him later in the day he looked really pale and he was
listing both to the side and aft down. He couldn't keep himself
upright. So that's when the lab had to go back in the tank and blue
guy had to come out. He couldn't even run and hide from the net
like everyone else did. I have more than one bucket but only one
extra set of filter, heater, thermometer. So I set up the second
hospital bucket.

He can't even keep himself upright in any way. Now he is totally
upside down. -- belly up in the hospital bucket and he can't seem
to do anything about it. His side fins can direct his movements very
crudely. I don't think he can move his tail fin. I put in some
melafix yesterday and today. I put in a little bit of aquarium salt
and he regained some color from that. I put in some fresh water.

I bought some frozen brine shrimp for blue guy. I'm thinking that
if he won't eat that, then maybe I need to euthanize him. :-( :-(
I put the brine shrimp in and I can't tell if he ate any but I'm
almost sure he tried to swim towards it.

Poor guy. He's such a sweetie. I feel so bad for him. I don't
know what to do for him. I want to do right by him.

Any suggestions?

Thanks.
coolchinchilla

elaine t

Oh, man. If he eats, or even tries there's hope. A fish with an
appetite is in much better shape than one without. Give an antibiotic
flake if he can get it from the surface - Jungle makes one. Otherwise
add a good broad-spectrum antibiotic like oxytetracycline dissolved in
oil to whatever he will/can eat.

If he doesn't eat, then you have to look closely and see if he's got
signs of infection or injury. I take it from the lab that he lives in
an African cichlid tank? Missing scales or fin damage mean he may have
simply been clobbered by his tankmates. You could have upset a
territorial balance by removing the lab. He'll probably heal if you can
keep the water good and clean. OTOH, if there are ulcers, red fin bases
or reddening at the vent, cloudy eyes, swelling, or other external signs
of infection, you can try antibiotics in the water but I wouldn't be too
optimistic.

-- Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

coolchinchilla

I'm glad to hear this! Otherwise

Huh? Do you mean dissolve a capsule in oil and then soak food in
it? What kind of oil is ok for a fish? I think all I have is olive oil.

Yeah. Lake Malawi Mbunas

Missing scales or fin damage mean he may have

Didn't know these fish were so persnickety and have such an intense
pecking order. I probably did disrupt the order of things
unnecessarily. The guy I got them from said that they were hearty
fish and that's all I knew. I went home and immediately read as
much as I could before I brought the tank home the next day. It's
been a month and I'm still in the learning curve stage. <sigh>

Thanks so much for your suggestions!

coolchinchilla

dick

Sounds like swim bladder infection. I have never had a fish recover
from this. Good news, I have never seen the infection spread, that is
another fish get sick in the same tank.

Just a thought about your efforts to feed your fish well, sometimes
fish don't eat. I had a large angelfish that was special to me. It
quit eating (so far as I could tell) for about a month, then suddenly
started eating again. I worry that special foods might contaminate a
tank. I know people like to feed fish special treats, some to bring
out color or to encourage breeding, but too much nutrient in the water
brings risks. You are such a "mother hen." Have you considered
chicken soup? <g>

****

****

elaine t

Right. If you can't find a pre-made antibiotic food and want to feed
antibiotics, make a slurry of a capsule of medicine in cooking oil and
soak a good spirulina-based cichlid staple food in it. Olive oil is
fine. Pre-made food is better, though, because the dosage is more
controlled. I think you can find the Jungle food at PetSmart if you're
in the US.

However, since he's an mbuna and you recently changed the tank, I think
physical damage is the problem and I don't know that antibiotics in the
food will do much. Dab some Neosporin on any open wounds every other
day until they heal. The most important things for him are excellent
water and a good spirulina-based food. Got any algae covered rocks for
him to pick at? Consider keeping him a breeding net in the main tank if
you start to get even a trace of ammonia in the hospital.

If he recovers, the really hard thing will be reintroducing him to the
tank. Post again here and in a.a.fw.cichlids when he's well and the
many mbuna experts will tell you what to do.

-- Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

coolchinchilla

Good news!!! Today blue guy was *upright* in the hospital bucket!!
He still looks awful as far as his "complexion" goes -- very pale
and some splotches where he looks injured. He can still only move
crudely with his side fins, but he was upright and he was at the
bottom of the bucket under the rock. Yahooooooo!

coolchinchilla

coolchinchilla

Huh. glad to know. Part of my pet experience is with bunnies. If
a bunny doesn't eat for more than 12 hours it is bad news and you
need to start interventions immediately (force water consumption,
favorite treats, massage the abdomen). If it is 24 hours, then you
need to get the bun to a vet immediately for gut motility drugs and
subcutaneous fluids. Food consumption is a major indicator of rabbit
health. I've given my bun some infant Gas-X as a preventative when
I wasn't sure if she was alright. Some people keep drugs and sub-Q
fluids plus a stethoscope to listen to bunny's gut in a bunny
first-aid kit.

So I guess I respond to my fish the same way I'd respond to my
bunny. :-) Of course they are VERY different creatures. Now that
I know better, I'll do better.


:-) If I could figure out how to give some chicken soup to my sick
fish, I'd do it! (He'd love the salt in the soup for sure!)

Thanks for the help.
coolchinchilla

coolchinchilla

Question about the delivery of the antibiotics: At the store the
fish meds seem to be designed to disolve in the tank water. The
label doesn't say anything about internal ingestion? Is the
water-delivery method a poor way to do it? Would the water delivery
be of any use to the external physical damage?

:-( Poor guy. Didn't know I was upsetting the balance so much.

and I don't know that antibiotics in the

ok.
The most important things for him are excellent

Good idea.

Consider keeping him a breeding net in the main tank if


I tested today and ammonia = 0, nitrite = 0 and nitrate = 20. So
far so good.


Ok. Thanks for your help!

Coolchinchilla

dick

I hope you are in a "caring" profession. You sure do have the
motivation and emphathy. On the other hand it might be too hurtfull
to watch others in pain. In any case you are a standard for others in
your caring! :-)

****

elaine t

Veterinarians treating large fish like koi always inject or treat with
antibiotics in the food. Much as with you and I, the fishes circulation
will deliver the antibiotic where needed. Fish can also absorb some
antibiotics through the skin and gill membranes, so for small fish that
refuse food, it's worth trying adding antibiotic to the water.
Nitrofurazone and kanamycin are two I can think of off the top of my
head that are absorbed - there are others. However, fish do not recieve
as strong a dose, a lot of the antibiotic breaks down in the water and
is lost, and you often damage your biofiltration which causes other
problems.

The other BIG problem with adding antibiotics to the water is that you
tend to raise antibiotic resistant bacteria in your fishtank. This is
particularly true of aquarists who use antibiotics frequently and switch
medicines after a few days when one doesn't work. There is at least one
very well-do***ented case of an aquarist becoming infected with
antibiotic resistant Mycobacterium marinum.

For visible external physical damage, preventing infection by dabbing
the injury with either an antibiotic cream/ointment like neosporin or a
bacteriostatic like mercurichrome is ideal. Again, you want to
concentrate the medicine at the wound. Dabbing malachite green onto a
wound that has fungused works exremely well. Diffuse external
infections like flexibacter often respond to bacteriostatics like
potassium permanganate or acriflavine which don't lead to drug resistance.
<soapbox>
So, why are all these antibiotics for tank water on the market? First,
they do sometimes work. But mostly, the pet fish industry is not
regulated at all, so caveat emptor applies. As long as a fish store
employee will recommend a packet of capsules for a sich fish and someone
buys them, they will stay be on the shelves. That attitude has also led
to the popularity of inadequately tested "natural" remedies like pimafix
and melafix, products that cause algae problems like pH down,
ineffective nitrifying bacterial products, and "kitchen-sink" water
treatments rather than simple dechlorinator.

I try very hard to stick to recommending antibiotics in food for fish
that are still eating or spot-treatments for wounds. I think it's far
more effective and safer for the aquarist.
</spoapbox> ;-)

BTW, keep us posted on how your fish is doing. I'm rooting for him!

-- Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com