rikko

Hi all,
We've got a new rep trying to sell us Right Now! bacteria and tri
carbon (and the rest of the Hiatt line). Has anybody actually tried
this stuff and been impressed?
The rep set up a 5 gallon mini reef but failed to give enough water
circulation - ammonia is on the rise and I'm less than impressed.


webpage).
We're trying to decide if it's worth bringing in as a product line.

Thanks

bill kirkpatrick

IMHO, a good, low P, water treatment carbon, is fine.
Lignite based, is also fine. Can't imagine why I'd pay more
to have some percentage of the product be desigined for
something "other" than water treatment.

Oh, and, they set off one of Bill's official "Run Far, Run
Fast" rules.... From: http://www.hdltd.com/products/p_tribase.html

Uh huh. Would that "special" carbon be your basic
run-of-the-mill waste water treatment carbon? Would those
"special" bugs be your basic run-of-the-mill nitrifying types?

News flash: nitrifying bacteria aggressively colonize
carbon. That, actually, is one of the major problems in
using it properly.

BTW, how many reef tanks need to remove... and I quote, again...

"Bathroom smells"? "Camphor"? "Cheese odors"? and, um,
"Burning fat odors"?

Maybe you should do your customers a favor. They've spent a
freaking-fortune on their reefs. Respect that. As greedy
as you may be, "Just Say No" to non-targeted applications.
That way ... they might come back. **********************************


'cus most packaged bacteria are a well known waste of money.
You don't have to add that which nature places in your
tank with such affirmative force that you'd have to take
extreme measures to stop it.

Why review that which one doesn't need?


Then you should know about the Nitrogen cycle, and treat
your customers a little better than marks-in-waiting. Help
them set up their tank correctly.

You're welcome.

rikko

Perhaps I need to rephrase the question:
Does this stuff work?
It makes grand claims, and supports them with only testimonial
evidence. Nothing scientific. Nor are there any scientific studies
that counter these claims. On the outside it looks like snake oil, yet
I haven't been able to find anyone who has looked into it closely.

I'm perfectly aware of the nitrogen cycle, but if you've ever worked
middle-class "family" fish retail then you're well aware that
aquariums need to be set up fast and full of fish, and this needs to
be done yesterday. I don't appreciate your insinuation that I'm trying
to rip people off, especially given that I gave no indication that I
intend to do so.
Your definition of setting up a tank "correctly" is being challenged
by what this product claims to do.

The question stands: Does this stuff work?

eric schreiber

They do seem to be trying just a *bit* too hard to promote the stuff,
don't they?


--
www.ericschreiber.com

dave

Jeeze dont be such a jerk! He's asking for an honest oppinion about a
product, no need for the extra and unneeded input. It's none of your
business how he runs his store, I'm sure his business is quite ethical. Even
if it wasn't, that's business bottom of the line. And you must never have
worked in retail, because if you did you would know that the customer may
not always be right, but the best you can do is let them think they are.
Even when you lay out the bare facts, it's the customer's choice of what
they want to do. I warn friends and family about cycling their tanks before
buying fish do they care, hell no! The best thing a person working at a fish
store can do, for a customer who refuses to listen is A) refuse to sell them
fish, B) sell them the fish and provide the best available options. In a
business perspective, the best option is to sell them the fish. Nobody likes
to be refused service, a happy customer is one who will come back and refer
friends and family. And you're wrong there are some products which work
quite well as nitrifying bacteria starters, such as biospira, but is
expensive. As a business owner you as little overhead as possible caused by
returns or dead fish in this case. Customers do not want to spend an arm and
a leg to setup an aquarium. Thus, "Rikko" is only trying to find the best
cost effective solution for his customers, without him ending with the
bottom end of the stick.

richard reynolds

IME stick it in the same pile as cycle, not quite biospira, but not quite snake oil, it
works a little.

--
Richard Reynolds
Richard.Reynolds@usa.net

frankrkay

I'm sure it works the same as the others - and you have to offer something.
It's going to be one of those things that tie up your money, and sit on the
shelf forever. Years before any of the bottled bacteria, we did fishless
cycles, useing three cut-to-fit foam sponges in power filters hung on the side
of 5 gal. buckets. Anybody that bought a filter, got a free pre-cycled seed
sponge. I think Cycle was the first "bacteria in a bottle", if I remember right
- and yes, we carried it, although we told everybody it wouldn't do any better
or faster than our free pre-cycled sponge. We still sold a bottle every once in
a while - but no where near the amount of pre-cycled filters! ....... Frank

eric schreiber

In your enthusiasm to attack William, do try at least to stick to
relevant information and not let your commentary run to the absurd side of assumption.

He's not wrong. He wrote "most packaged bacteria are a well known waste
of money", which is true. 'Most' does not equal or imply 'all', as you
apparently thought he wrote.


Oh yeah, one last thing. Paragraph breaks. Try them sometime.


--
www.ericschreiber.com

I can tell you what does seem to work. In the last 6 months I have
helped a friend set up 2 new aquariums. Like all newbies, he wanted to
pack the tanks with fish on day 1. I use the Aquaclear line of
filters, What I did was take the sponge out of my filter on my 55
gallon and squeeze the liquid contents of it into a milk jug. I got
about a pint of very dark water. Next, I had my friend pour that info
his new tank on the end where his filter intake was. We monitored
ammonia and nitrites for months and never say a spike. Both tanks are
established now. YMMV.

bill kirkpatrick

Define "work", define "stuff".

Broken Bill rule. Magic Elixir. Run. Run far, run fast.
Run from anybody that would sell you "magic" for inclusion
into your multi-thousand dollar investment.

If they can't itemize the content, if they can't explain the
product's function in detail, if they won't explain how the
product improves upon well working, and long established,
regimens, then I must assume "buyer beware".

Here's the assumption I personally make when I see this sort
of stuff.... The purveyor is more interested in the profit
than anything else. They must not really know, or care, or
are unable to legally advertise any true and measurable
benefit, what the stuff does.

They want me to buy a pig-in-a-poke.

Nobody spends good time and money refuting junk.


Your phrase, not mine.


Typical marketing. Gee, "Only YOU, personally, can see how
well it works for you!" That, alone, represents X thousands
of units sold.

Why would anyone look "into it closely"? We have long
established science on how an aquarium cycles.

That is an educational problem. Either you teach them, or
their soon-to-be dead fish will teach them. My ethics lie
in that place where the professional does the right thing.

You should know that nitrifying bacteria are ubiquitous, so
innoculants are of dubious value.


Well, you claim to be in the LFS business. You are using
the newsgroups to vet product. The charter for the .aquaria
groups is clearly non-commercial. The fact you're doing
this says something about you.

Nor was I insinuating anything about you. I don't know you
from anything other than what I might derive from the parent
post. I was condemning the LFS industry generally, and
maybe even the modern American vision of "Greed Is Good(tm)".

Yet, you, yourself, say above...

If they have so advanced the state of the art, then why are
they be unable to demonstrate their claims a bit better?


You won't get a testimonial from me. To answer this
question, both legally and negatively, would require I buy
at least 1 bottle and perform a scientific analysis. Of
course, you'll take anyone that takes your bait and claims
that "It's Great!" straight to the bank.

I'm not going to fall for that trap. Nor should anyone else.

But, here's a blurb for you that speaks to the general issue
of add-in bacteria inoculation...

The following from:

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/2637/faq.html

Recently some commercial products have appeared, such as
Cycle or Sure-Start, claiming to contain live bacteria
(Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter) that will speed up or
eliminate your cycling process. It is very difficult to
evaluate their claims, because most people only start up one
aquarium at a time, and thus cannot provide "double blind"
tests on the effectiveness of such products. There have been
one instance reported in the Aquatic Plant Digest of a
person who cycled two tanks at the same time, one with Cycle
and one without, and directly compared the cycling time
between the two (by monitoring ammonia, nitrite and
nitrate). He found no difference.

There are two problems with these products, one is the
freshness issue mentioned in the article on cycling, and the
other is the fact that our previous assumptions about the
specific bacteria responsible for the cycling process may be
WRONG! Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter bacteria have
traditionally been assumed to perform the function of
converting ammonia to nitrate in aquaria. However, they were
identified using bacterial culturing techniques that were
prone to errors. Dr. Tim Hovanec, using modern RNA analysis,
found almost none of these bacteria in mature freshwater
aquaria. Instead, he found large populations of Nitrospiras
that could be performing these nitrifying functions. His
research was published in the scientific literature in 1996
(the August issue of Applied and Environmental Microbiology)
and in the December 1996 and January 1997 issues of Aquarium
Fish Magazine. If his research conclusions are correct, then
these commercial products such as Cycle and Sure-Start are
packaging the wrong bacteria! My opinion is that you would
be better off saving your money, and just use some water or
gravel from an established aquarium to seed your tank.