leonard caillouet

I don't see a "digression" at all, in the sense that I think you intend.
Seems to me that pushing the technology to its limits has direct benefits to
building more efficient and cleaner burning, reliable engines. Does anyone
come close to Honda in this regard?

Leonard

jim beam

yes, toyota. both honda & toyotoa are neck & neck - have been for some
time.

jim beam

paradoxically, it's not. to get every watt out of a racing engine, you
have to design to get that energy out of the fuel. in terms of energy
output per liter burned, F1 engines are some of the most efficient in
the world. and it's no coincidence that F1 racing is also fuel limited.
that technology is directly usable in the world of domestic economy
engine design. whether detroit /chooses/ to use it is another matter
entirely. look at the specific output [watts per liter] of honda &
toyota engines and compare them with detroit hunkojunks.

hachiroku

Hmmmm....interesting take on the problem.

Except, you DO know these engines run on Methanol, right? And that
methanol is made from Corn (methanol is actually a form of grain alchohol,
or "White Lightening" or "Moonshine")

If anything, the means to ectract 700+ HP from an engine running Grain
Alchohol should be commended. Add to that the fact they've been doing it
for almost 20 years now, and the real question SHOULD be, why aren't we
developing this technology for street cars.

Now, at the current time, methanol is VERY expensive, mush more than
gasoline. IIRC, the current price for methanol racing fuel is about $6 per
gallon, but this is a purely refined form.

If the technology came into use more, there is no reason why the car
you're driving couldn't un on 25-30% methanol. And if the government had
taken note, instead of playing ball with the fuel companies for the last
20 years, there would have been plenty of oil if there had been more
widespread ethanol replacement. I have been running a 10% mixture of
gasoline and ethanol in one of my cars for almost 20 years now (I seek the
stuff out!) and it still seems to be running just fine. Now the IRL has
announced it will be running an Ethanol/Methanol mix beginning for the
year 2006.

ALL CART/Champ Cars/IRL cars have been running on Methanol since 1979 or
1980.

Actually, I'm wrong. From the IRL page:
"Methanol has been the fuel of choice in cars running in the Indianapolis
500 since 1965. A fatal accident involving drivers Eddie Sachs and Dave
MacDonald on the second lap of the 1964 Indianapolis 500 prompted the
switch."


http://www.hawaii.gov/dbedt/ert/activitybook/fs-alcohol.html

http://www.mocorn.org/news/2005/News%20Release3-03-05.htm

http://www.g-forse.com/archive/news356_e.html

hachiroku

Here's an even better article.

Seems I was a little wrong here. Methanol isn't grain alchohol, it is WOOD
grain alchohol.

And just think: if they used rice to make ethamol (Sake??) It really WOULD
be a "Ricing" league...


http://www.methanol.org/altfuel/press/pr970521.html

hachiroku

Interesting you call yourself "Jim Beam"! See my other responses to the
OP. Did YOU know these cars run on Methanol? (Most people don't...)

About 14 years ago I was listening to Deborah Norville's radio program
where she had a folk singer who was going to protest the Indy 500 for that
year because he wanted to point out what a waste of gasoline it was. Oh
BOY! I jumped right on the phone and called in, and told them that the
cars run on Methanol, and if ANYTHING he should be PRAISING the engine
builders and engineers for being able to squeeze 600+ HP out of an engine
running a Renewable Resource...

They didn't have much to talk about after that! ;P

tomb

Uhm, no. Methanol ("wood alcohol") is the simplest alcohol, ethanol ("grain
alcohol") is the second simplest. They are distinct substances, and methanol
is quite toxic. Don't be giving people ideas that they should drink methanol
to get drunk... they'll loose their eyesight or worse.

(Probably more than you wanted to know at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol)

hachiroku

Yeah, I realized that after I posted it!

But after a few bouts withj Everclear, I'll try anything once!

brent secombe

Jim, that's a cogent and articulate reply. Thank you.

Brent

brent secombe

Thank you. No, I didn't know about the methanol. I don't follow racing.
I'm pleased to learn that the fuel is from a renewable resource.

I was born completely ignorant, and I'm still playing catch-up. :-)

Brent