mingkahuna

Exactly! Understand that I didn't say what I said to be flippant about it. If
it isn't selling some adjustments need to be made.

Art

random

Yes, but it sounds like you're assuming that I'm the one who needs to
make them. Very few people have seen my work in person, and they
seemed to think it was pretty good. A larger number of people have
seen photographs of it, and most of them balk at paying over $100 for
a pipe no matter what; the heckler crowd that Jeff mentioned, who
think that if they post enough snotty comments that will cause prices
to come down to the Grabow range. I'm really hoping to make it to the
Chicago show, for a lot of reasons, and the main thing that I plan to
adjust between now and then is my production techniques -- there are
some things that are just taking too damn long and I'm actively trying
to find ways to speed up those parts of the process.

Neil (sagiter) wrote a post this morning that really hit home, talking
about potential customers and the market he's trying to reach. I'm
not trying to reach the Grabow crowd and I'm not trying to reach those
collectors who carry a loupe and digital caliper, I'm trying to reach
the serious smoker who can choose what he wishes to smoke because it
appeals to him, not because he was able to forego that extra case of
beer this week in order to buy a pipe.
--
Random's Pipes: http://www.ren-prod-inc.com/pipes

charles perry

I really debated whether or not I wanted to enter this discussion. Art
makes a good point. If your product is not selling, you likely have it
overpriced. You say you are targeting people who can choose to smoke what
they wish, well that pretty much describes me. I can buy pretty much any
pipe I want with some of the Danish pipes being the exceptions. However, I
would not consider your pipes at their present prices. Their value has not
been "proven" in my opinion. I can buy pipes from makers like Tinsky,
Bonaquisti, S&R, even Rousch and Cooke, for equal or lower prices. These
pipe makers have made their name over many years and the prices of their
products reflect both the quality of their work and the level of respect
they have gained in the pipe smoking community.

As a new pipe maker you are fighting an uphill battle to gain the respect
you believe your work deserves. In your case, you also must battle some
pretty odd discussions on ASP in which you vehemently advocated very odd
pipemaking practices. I seem to remember one in which you held that boring
the smoke channel well under the bottom of the bowl and connected it to the
bowl via a vertical hole would produce a better pipe! Can you say Gurgle?
With such discussions you have an even harder battle to convince people that
when you say a pipe is well made, it is what they consider well made.

Charles Perry P.E.

mingkahuna

Yes, random, getting to Chicago and having people examine your work is a very
good idea. But, the real test is having people own and smoke your work. I
think that Charles has made some outstanding points. And, it should give you
food for thought for Chicago. Answer me this: why would I buy one of your
pipes for $350 if I can buy an Eltang or Roush (for example) for just a little
more, or many other proven carvers for even less? Chicago is a very target
rich environment for the buyer and you will need to make your pipes all the
more attractive. At $350 you probably don't stand a snowballs chance in hell.

But, if you lower your prices you can get your work into more people's hands,
and if the pipes are what you say they are word will get around and you may
find yourself on the way.

How long it takes you to make a pipe is your business and is irrelvant to the
buyer. If that continues to be a major factor in your pricing you may be
dooming yourself to failure.

If I were you I'd read Charles' advice again, long and hard, and consider the
possibility that he is 100% correct.

And that's all I've got to say about that.

Art

random

Although that is the most obvious possibility, it is also possible
that people can't evaluate the product fully basd on the information they have.


As I was trying to say above, the customer can't really evaluate the
product over the web and assumes the worst, regardless of the fact
that there is really no risk involved.

No argument there.

It does produce a potentially better smoker but there are maintenance
issues involved; the prototypes that I made did not gurgle at all btw.

If life was too easy, would it be as much fun?

Those who are unwilling to hire a man without references often miss
out, and those who are unwilling to buy a pipe without an ironclad
reputation are going to need to wait.
--
Random's Pipes: http://www.ren-prod-inc.com/pipes

random

Absolutely, they are made to be smoked and enjoyed.

The main reason people pick up a pipe to look at it, or consider
buying a pipe over the web, is that the pipe calls out to them. If
one of my pipes does not call out to you I would not want you to buy
it! If one of my pipes calls out louder than anything on the Eltang
or Roush tables, it would make sense for you to pick it up and look at
it. For me as a carver it is about making the best pipe that I am
able to make, which involves a lot of soul-searching about what is
"good" in a pipe especially involving aesthetics. For anyone
considering buying a pipe, it is about choosing the pipe that will
provide the most smoking enjoyment over the years. If a person needs
the permission of a reputation or references in order to do what he
wishes to do, well that person is probably not part of my current
potential market given that I have neither.


Art, you have given me my first belly-laugh of the day. I don't
recall ever having had a snowball's chance in hell at anything, but
I'm so used to operating in that mode I hardly notice it anymore.
Your pointing it out reminds me that this planet is God's little joke,
and I have to laugh, because it is a damn funny joke.


Yes, if I was to sell my pipes for $100 each no doubt sales would pick
up, I would gain a reputation, and in order to sell through retailers
I'd have to find a way to make them for $50 each. Or I'd have to find
a way to "reinvent" my product and double my prices. According to a
fellow I know very little but respect a fair amount.


I'm hoping that eventually I'll be able to make them in half the time
it takes now, so I'll have a chance with the retailers. Maybe I'll be
able to make them even faster, which would allow me to reduce my
prices. On the other hand, being able to work unhurriedly is very
enjoyable. Who knows what the future holds, certainly not me; every
day I learn something new, and I never know beforehand what it will
be, some days it is trivial and other days it is fantastic.

I agree with the majority of what Charles had to say, there's just
nothing much that I can do about it.


It's too bad there's no knowledgable but disinterested 3rd party
pipeseller I could send some pipes to and let him do the pricing based
on his market knowledge for a percentage of the sales. Frankly I
think it's much more important that I continue trying to improve my
production techniques than try to put on some "sale" nobody will
respond to.
--
Random's Pipes: http://www.ren-prod-inc.com/pipes

charles perry

<snip>


Who said anything about being unwilling to buy a pipe without an ironclad
reputation? What I meant was you can't expect to get high end prices for
your pipes until you have built your reputation. You are charging prices
that put you in competition with many well respected and well known artisan
pipe makers. Not to mention that you are also running head to head with the
likes of Dunhill, Ashton, Castello, Radice....all big names with pipes
priced lower than some of yours.

Many people are willing to spend $100 for a pipe from an up and coming
carver, knowing that the pipe may turn out to be worthless. Few people will
spend $400 for that same pipe. In 1998 I bought a pipe from a new carver at
the Columbus show. I paid around $100 for it. He sold most of what he
brought that year. He displayed in 1999 and nearly sold out again. Then he
just dropped off of the face of the earth. As far as I know, he doesn't
even carve now. Do I feel cheated? No. For my $100 I received a nice
looking, well made, and good smoking pipe. Is it worth $100 now? Not at
all since noone will have heard of the carver. Now repeat the story with a
$400 purchase price and I would feel a little different.

Charles Perry P.E.

mingkahuna

No matter random, good luck.

BTW, reinventing the product means changing it. There must be an associated
benfit to the consumer. While a product may be priced too low, and even if it
is a matter of moving it to the proper price, there still must be real value
added.

One more thing, my example of the Eltang and the Roush was more about one
dealing with the dynamics of a pipe show, and the hobby in general. A guy comes
to a pipe show with a budget. There is incredible competition for each dollar
spent at a show. A new carver, especially at your pricepoint, will find it
extremely difficult barring something fairly spectacular or offering an
exceptional value.

Again, good luck.

Art

david quisenberry

Regardless of how well your pipes might be constructed, or how your new
approaches to making a pipe (non removable stem), I would highly suggest
that the original poster gave you the best advice when he said "Your shapes
are uninspired. They are klunky at best".

random

Another vote for the towel. Thank you.


--
Random's Pipes: http://www.ren-prod-inc.com/pipes