barry harmon

Looks like you're on the right track, but there's a problem.

Notice how the large holes are all in one place and seem to lift the top
crust almost like a shell? And that the rest of the bread is fairly
regularly holed? (If that's the proper term.) What you've got is a
separation of the crumb and the crust in one area of the loaf.

How did you shape the loaf?

How long did the loaf rise before baking and what were the conditions
during rising?

What were the baking conditions?

Go here http://www.artisanbreadbaking.com/di...nal_topics.htm
and read about the flying crust problem at the bottom of the page.

Barry

joe

I was guessing by this point - running on "instinct" (aka "empty"). But I
did stretch and fold. However it was still wet so I would sprinkle some
flour on it so I could at least put it down as a clump of dough.

PS: I actually like my "clumpy" bread more than the pretty slits. But I know
I should nonetheless learn to do it the traditional way so I can show I know
how to do it and not use "more artisitc" as as an excuse for my "clumpy" bread.

There were 2 folds and 3 rise periods: rise 1 hr / fold / rise 1.5 hr
(forgot the clock) / fold / rise 1 hour


I don't know. My kitchen was warm from the previous bread. I am in NYC and
it is very cool for spring here.


Thanks Barry - you're the best!


--
-baka joe
___________________________________
my bread: http://www.joesbread.com/
my faith: http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/jbc33/

barry harmon

There is nothing wrong with big holes, but your bread borders on a
flying crust, which is a separation of crust and crumb. Proper holes
are distributed throughout the bread, usually starting small at the
bottom and getting bigger toward the top of the loaf. Judging by the
crust and the dense look of the crumb, you have two things going on.

1. The crumb looks very dense, so you probably have a dough that's a
bit old. From the 3 1/2 hours of rise, you may have let the dough go
too long in fermentation. What did the recipe say was the fermentation
time?

2. The separation of crust and crumb can be caused by a long, dry final
rise. The dough rises and expands. The top dries out. The interior
collapses a bit. The crust can't collapse with the interior, since it's
dry, so it stays up. When you bake, the interior expands a bit, but
never catches the crust, which stays up there, high, alone and proud.

Some people love flying crusts and think it's the mark of artisan bread.
I think it's the mark of a mistake, one that's easily corrected.

In general, it's best to bake the dough just a bit on the "young" side.

You can foil the flying crust demons by keeping the dough damp -- I use
an old tea towel that I mist with water from time to time. You can also
foil them by flipping the dough over as you put it into the oven. This
sounds like it will collapse the dough, but it doesn't usually hurt
much, if at all. Don't give the bread too long in final rise.

There are three timings on folding dough. (There are others, but these
will do for now.)

1. Do a fold 70% of the way through the fermentation period.

2. Do a fold at the half way point.

3. Do a fold at 50% of the time, then another at 85% of the time.

Take a look at the Treatise on Baking in the FAQ for this newsgroup and
look under faults and old/exhausted dough. The book was originally


Barry

joe

1 hr for each rise.


I thought I sensed a bit of hubrous... flour, the ultimate egomaniac - go figure!

Yes thank you please very much may I agree with you so much it's like a
sledge hammer hitting a pea after it's been soaked overnight.


Ok, birthdays aside, how am I to tell the doughs "age"? I mean baker's yeast
(being awesomeness to the extreme that it is) will make the dough rise like NASA's last launch.


Well, the dough was wet to begin with so I don't see this issue cropping up
for wuite some time yet (until I learn to make real smooth dough. Forestier
also recommends linen since it sticks less to the dough. She said that if
one uses cloth then NEVER wash it - just let it dry out hanging over the oven handle.

70% of 1 hr = the 43 min mark?


half-way point = 30 mins following the fold at 1.?


50% of the time = 30 mins following the fold at 2, and then 85% = 0.85*60
mins = 51 mins following the fold of 2. (= 21 mins following the fold of 3.)?


I did read your page about the "flying crust" problem and will look at the
treatise in the FAQ.

One last thing - about the author's description vs the actual hydration...
so what am I supposed to do? Make the dough by eye and feel so I know it's
smooth ignoring the recipe, or continue to follow misleading instructions
and hoping for the best? I am confused about which is the route you were
suggesting in your previous post.


--
-baka joe
___________________________________
my bread: http://www.joesbread.com/
my faith: http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/jbc33/

barry harmon

******* And there were three of them? That's a long time for first
rise for a yeasted bread. Next time, try doing fermentation at 2 hours,
folding at the 1:20 mark.


******* Dough's like that. It sometimes kneads to be taken down a
notch or two.

******* By young I mean that you make sure that the dough is still in
the up side of expansion -- the yeast is still active. There is a
dimple test that helps here, but I usually just make sure that final
rise is a bit shorter than or right at what the book says. Not
scientific, but it works.

******* The problem isn't that the dough is wet or dry, it's what
happens at the outer layer of the crust. If the dough is left out for a
long time, the outer layer will dry out. In fact, flying crusts are
easier to make with a wet dough, because the interior web is more
fragile than with a dry dough. I know about the linen, but I use tea
towels because they transmit and hold the moisture. As for not washing
it, I wash my tea towels and it hasn't bothered them.


******* Take the total fermentation time, the time between kneading and
shaping. Figure out 70% of that and fold at that mark. That's all
there is to it. If the total fermentation time is 2 hours, fold at 1
1/2 hours. If you are going to do two folds, do one at one hour and
another 30 or 40 minutes later. If the total fermentation time is 2
hours and the author doesn't specify a fold, I will shorten the
fermentation time a bit if I decide to fold the dough, since folding
speeds up development a bit.

******* This is a bit of a problem, which is why I keep records of all
the breads I make. I also know what different hydrations are like,
which types of breads use different hydration levels and which authors I
can trust.

******* Where is this recipe?


Barry

joe

Ohhh... ok, I can watch for that. ....

I see now, and this will be on the rise side of the "young" dough.

Maybe I will run with the better result I had on this second loaf - i.e.
rely on hand mixing, look for a smooth dough, and ignoring the stand mixer.
Since the dough started out looking good could the mixer be breaking the
gluten bonds? There is also something called oxydation and perhaps this
mixer aids in that process which is the counter of making gluten bonds.
Hamelman, in his (what I consider an excellent, A+) book, BREAD, says that
different machines can affect the outcome of the dough. It is kinda weird
that I keep getting extra gooey dough even though I follow the recipes... :/

Cook's Illustrated's "BAKING ILLUSTRATED", "Rustic Italian Bread" on page
98. I can do any of the follwoing at your command:
1) email you a scanned copy,
2) copy the instructions verbatum here, or
3) post the scanned images here (with links to ImageShack.us).

You pick.


--
-baka joe
___________________________________
my bread: http://www.joesbread.com/
my faith: http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/jbc33/

barry harmon

What's easiest for you, probably email a scanned copy.

I'll be sure to have the copyright police monitor the transmission. <g>

johnfrum@optonline.net

Barry

dee dee

Forestier
also recommends linen since it sticks less to the dough. She said that
if
one uses cloth then NEVER wash it - just let it dry out hanging over
the
oven handle.


Certainly not on point, but I just 'had' to comment.
When I read these comments, I wonder about several things: moths!
crackly cloths laden with dried dough one can't shake off; a constant
'small' showering of flour flooding in front of the oven, making a
slippery footing, off-smelling of wheat flour -- you get my drift.

What I have done previously is: put the cloth into a zip-lock bag and
freeze it, and most recently, vaccumed in a foodsaver container (or
bag if one chooses).


On your later post, re the Cook's Illustrated recipe: I certainly
don't call myself a great breadbaker, or even a good bread baker, but
an interested one. I can remember reading the article and thinking to
myself, I'm glad this isn't my first attempt making bread. I'm an
advocate of Cook's Ilustrated and have many, many of their books,
DVD's, and magazine annuals, so I hope you don't think I am blindly
knocking their expertise. It was just that particular article on
bread making that I thought they could have done a better job.

Dee Dee

joe

On May 19, 11:23 am, "joe" <living...@gmail.com> wrote:


Forestier is a master baker trained in France under the reknowned Prof.
Calvel (the discoverer of autolyse). She is not associated with CI (afaIk).

Your cloth comments are well-taken. I have towels hanging on handles around
the kitchen and I have wondered how dusty do they get by the time I get to
use whichever one of them. So I dry my hands with paper towels = no lint and
used often enough in the kitchen that the dust is not an issue. (I get into
baking "jags" and then stop and start...)

I am a diminishing fan of CI. I use to go to their website for everything.
Once I realized my focus was on bread and that theirs was on food our paths
started to separate. I do own many of their books on cooking b/c I do like
to cook, no DVD's and only Cook's Country. But the more I get into bread the
less I need CI and the more I need alt.bread.recipes. Now as for this recipe
it strikes me as counter to their claim that they try everything repeatedly.
The dough I see in the mixer is a gooey substance akin to lumpy Elmer's
glue, or oatmeal that will stick to your shoes. What's up with that, when
they say it should be a silky smoothy cohesive ball of dough by the time you
finish with the high speed mix - BALONEY SALAMI BALONEY! (that made sense
when I was a kid ... hmmm)


--
-baka joe
___________________________________
my bread: http://www.joesbread.com/
my faith: http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/jbc33/

janet bostwick

snip>>> Ok, birthdays aside, how am I to tell the doughs "age"? I mean

snip
put the whole of your palm against the dough at all stages of growth so that
you get the actual feel of how 'lively' it is at any stage. Start right at
the beginning, right after you have finished kneading the dough. Then feel
the dough maybe every half hour through out, even after the dough has been
shaped. You will find distinct differences over the growth period and will
begin to be able to judge how the dough is doing.
Janet