hofer

Unfortunately, I have no Ortiz book and have no idea, what is it
"porridge bread".
Is it of Limpa batter bread style like Ed Wood describes?
The technique for Borodinsky bread is an elaborated method for a kind
of rye breads (60% rye and more) called "improved" and made by keeping
rye/rye malt mix for about 2 hours at temperatures 62-67C (about 150F)
that is mashing in essence: saccarification of rye flour starches by
rye malt amylase enzymes. Mashing is a main stage of making beer.
See the thread
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.food.sourdough/browse_thread/thread/e04fc11aeb682612/d731258f400eab2c#d731258f400eab2c

and http://www.howtobrew.com

Russians and German mainstream idea (read correspondence with Michael
Ganzle in D. Wings book and here, at the group) is that because "white"
wheat bread shouldn't be acidified substantially; there is no need for
use of sourdough starters but usual baker's yeast. Not as French or
Italians think! Recently I have found hints that "off the beaten track"
there are sourdough techniques for wheat bread in russian technical
literature but meantime have nothing tangible just references.
"A 100%-rye porridge bread made without yeast that bakes for 7 hours"
reminds Pumpernikel, doesn't it? But can't say it's not my cup of
tea/slice of bread: I limited myself to russian breads only.

Leonid

greg

Bread that starts from (or at least contains) a "porridge" made by
scalding flour with boiling water. As opposed to, for instance, a
"sponge" made with flour, cold water and yeast. Your "mashing" sounds
like making a porridge but sustaining the high temperature for a while.


Certainly not as San Franciscans think! I don't know how common pure
white wheat French or Italian sourdough breads actually are. Ortiz seems
to think sourdough rare in Italy altogether. Many French recipes contain
some rye or whole-grain flour.

Indeed: I sent some by airmail and called it pumpernickel on the customs
declaration. But I'm not well read enough to risk calling it that here.

Greg

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will

I have a different interpretation of porridge bread and it is somewhat
connected to the concept of porridge.

If you crack grain, slake it down, and let it sit in a covered bucket
for a day or so, it starts to ferment. This fermentation is an
essential part of making regular porridge as bran needs to be softened
by water and phytic acid is reduced during fermentation. If you then
add coarse flour to a cup or so of the softened, wet cracked grain, the
whole business then performs like a regular sponge. From there the
process is like the wet ferment stage of any other bread. In the end
you get a smooth, silky bread as the kneading and bulk ferment finish
breaking down the cracked grain.

The bread's flavor is very mild.

greg

If by "regular porridge" you mean something like Quaker Oats in hot
water or milk (as I would), has the process you describe already been
done to such products before they are packaged and sold? Or is heating
another way of accomplishing, quickly, the same thing?

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will

Porridge, to me, is cracked (or rolled) and soaked, slightly fermented
grain that is then slow cooked.
There is a difference in both texture and flavor when you use cooked
cereal vs. the raw, fermented soaker stuff that was probably last
popular a hundred years ago.

Bread with cooked cereal, as in Quaker oats, or even my own home brew
variety when cooked, is heavier and gummier. The flavor is more vegetal
as well.

"is heating another way of accomplishing, quickly the same thing..."

I suppose the answer is yes and no. Yes, it is quicker if you measure
elapsed time. No, it is not quicker, if you measure effort, you must
cook the cereal, clean the pot, etc....

kenneth

Howdy,

I may be missing something here, but...

Heating does not produce the tastes and textures of
fermentation of grain in my experience.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

will

You got it. Cooked oatmeal in bread, tastes like... well, cooked
oatmeal.

I was trying to finesse the issue of "quickly". I usually have trouble
with it, since "bread" and "quickly" seldom seem to rendezvous at the
taste line.

Perhaps making bread is one of those fascinating, real life, examples
of "asynchronous" time. Three days is 20 minutes.

kenneth

On 8 Jun 2005 09:54:52 -0700, "Will"


Hi Will,

This is an endlessly amusing issue. On other groups I often
read of folks who delight in being able to bake a loaf of
bread from start to finish in mere moments. I sometimes try
(to little avail I suspect) to explain that making bread is
not unlike making wine. No doubt, these folks would enjoy
wine that they made overnight...

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

hofer

Porridge (without mystics) is a gelatinized starch. Your remarks about
wheat porridge bread were just in time: reading Auerman's book posted
by Ronald Fieldstein in the past the following was found about porridge
bread (these are only extracts and conclusions):
Wheat bread:
- to make the porridge 5-10% of the whole amount of flour mixed with
triple amount of water to gain about 70C temperature (not 62-65C!). The
result: starch is gelatinized.
Afterwards the porridge could be:
- saccarified (by autosaccarification with amylases of the flour or
adding malt) at 62-65C
- left "as is"
- salted (to make "salt porridge")
- fermented with SD or yeasts
Experiments have shown that the best thing for wheat bread is to leave
porridge as is w/o saccarification. It is absolutely necessary to make
porridge when adding "adjuncts" like oat or maize (corn). General
conclusion: porridge improves the wheat bread when the flour is weak to
produce enough CO2 and/or sugar.
Rye bread:
Jumping directly to conclusions: only saccarification (preferably with
rye or barley malt) of the porridge does make good to rye bread and
substantially improves it.
That means that you (and Ortiz) are right: the porridge w/o
saccarification (mashing) does exist. Actually, temperatures of mashing
(62-65C) are lower than that of "simple" porridge (70C) because this
70C temperatures aims to kill (denaturize) amylase ferments.
Exciting.

Leonid

greg

Fermentation can certainly FOLLOW heating, e.g. in beer-making. What
would be another purpose for resting a denaturized porridge overnight?
Or perhaps, despite the boiling water, the effective maximum temperature
is still below 70 degrees Celsius because the water cools on mixing and
thereafter. The porridge-based Tuscan bread is certainly tasty, whereas
ordinarily bread lacking salt is not; I can't tell you for sure what the
tastiness consists of, but if I were to guess I would say sugars.

In beer-making, is the purpose of mashing to produce additional sugars,
or merely to extract them from the grain into solution (after they were
produced during malting)? Either way, it presumably enhances the
subsequent fermentation.

You can understand "quickly" to mean "producing more flavour", instead
of "taking less time", if you prefer. My own baking is certainly not
directed towards shorter elapsed times.

Greg

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