d. cook

I tried growing a wild starter but after 2 weeks there was no love.
Later I realized that I was using chlorinated water which probably had
something to do with it. In any event, I got some starter from a local
bakery (they don't normally sell it or anything, but just scooped some
out for me to use) and have been happily using it until the past week
or so.

On the last couple of batches of bread, my rises have slowed down
considerably. Instead of the normal 3 hours or less for a second rise,
I've been going 6 hours or more. I started the billowy loaves recipe
the other night and never got the starter to triple, although it more
than doubled. I've had the loaves in the pan for the last 7 hours
waiting to rise enough to turn on the oven, but they're still not even
with the tops of the pans.

Could it be that the bakery had made the starter with commercial yeast
and it's losing its oomph?

I just set some bottled water and whole wheat flour out to try to grow
something. Hopefully I'll have better luck this time. If not, is
there a "best" dried culture to use? I really like the sour flavor and
so I'm wary of Carl's Friends' starter since I've read several times
that it doesn't get very sour.

fred

My current starter began as rye flour and tap water about 2 or 3 months ago.
I fed it daily for the first week with high gluten flour. Now I use it
twice per week so it gets 2 feedings of high gluten flour per week as I
replace what I took. The other days I make non-sourdough.

If I make a 3 lb. dough, I use about 1/4 cup of starter. Fermentation takes
about 12 hours. Proofing takes about an hour. I don't think I've ever
baked any in a loaf pan. I usually make a 1 1/2 lb. batard and a couple of
small 3/4 lb. baguettes when I make up the dough. The bread has good
texture, plenty of sourdough flavor and bakes pretty normally despite the
different "feel" the dough has compared to similar bread leavened with
baker's yeast.

By the way, I usually proof non-sourdough less than an hour. Even though
the sourdough looks underproofed to me when I fire up the oven, it finishes
proofing beautifully and doesn't get the "stretch marks" my non sourdough
would get if I underproofed it. I don't know why, I've just gotten
accustomed to working with it.

I find the starter stable, predictable and consistent from week to week. I
doubt any of the original rye flour is still there. I do lose the top skin
to drying despite the fact that the starter is covered with plastic film and
I have to dispose of that each day that I bake sourdough. So there is a
little lost flour - but at $4 for a 25 lb. bag, it isn't much of a deal.

People who taste my sourdough rave about it. I like it better than what I
can buy at the bakery - no preservatives - and it costs me about a quarter
per loaf. Non-sourdough is more expensive because I have to pay for the
yeast.

Fred
Foodie Forums
http://www.foodieforums.com

dick adams

When you say "proof", "proofing", "underproofed" above, just what do you
mean? When you say "fire up the oven", what do you mean? (start a wood
fire, turn on the gas, switch on the heating loops???)

A personal opinion like that can be prejudiced. Don't you have any wife and
kids who just love your bread, to confirm it? (That is pretty much a requirement
around here.)

What does your bread look like? Can you send some photos? (Particularly
of the inside, like a slice or half-loaf end on?)
"Fred" <blades2@starband.***> wrote in message news:vmjLc.608$VQ1.288@fe25.usenetserver.com...


Another solution is to use your present mixers more sensibly.
-- **** Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html

samartha

So D. Cook,


- self-grown
- from your bakery

and all had some kind of flaw, the self-grown did not sustain vitality and
so appeared the one from the bakery.

Now, isn't that fact by itself telling you something?

About the Carl's not getting sour, have a look there:

http://samartha.net/images/SD/BYDATE/02-01-26/

You will find pH measurements which show total normal behavior for a
starter, going down to pH 3.8, and with the dough going from 5.something
after mix/knead to 4.something after fermentation right before baking.

One thing you can bet on is that the Carl's gets sour, just like any other
good sourdough starter if treated properly and my guess is that all the
starters you tried were ok.

So, what do you think could be going wrong besides the chlorinated water?

Do you think you overfed you starter - too young, or you starved it - overripe?

Are you following any procedure/recipe/schedule when you grow your starter?
Are you doing any variations in your routine so you can see if anything
improves or gets worse?

Maybe that would be something to look at with your new starter at some point.

Samartha


At 11:18 PM 7/22/2004, you wrote:

remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address

brian mailman

Is there a way to describe all that in a few sentences?

B/

samartha

Sure - go ahead, do it, then email it to me and I put it up, if I like it ;-) Samartha


remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address

brian mailman

I take it then the answer from you is "no, there is no simple way to
describe what I do, the only way I can feel good about it is to make it
as complex as possible and you're simply SOL."

B/

samartha

Well, I figured that you did find this inadequate as it is and have a
better idea about it.

Since you are able to read and understand (assuming here) what is presented
you should be able to abstract, condense and formulate in a form you find
improved, which I asked you to do.

I am definitely open for suggestions.

And yes, when I did this over 2 years ago, I was very exited, had a lot of
fun and felt good about it. Nowadays, I am kind of neutral with it. So, I
would not agree with your statement that this is "the only way to feel good
about it".

That page is one of the more popular one's - well over 5000 hits so far -
if it could be improved, it may be beneficial for all future visitors.

If you can be constructive, you are most welcome to do so.

Samartha

remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address

d. cook

In article
<mailman.1090589531.25586.rec.food.sourdough@www.m ountainbitwarrior.com>,

True. And in reality I think that my self-grown could have developed
into something over time, but I had no experience with what a starter
should do or look like. Additionally I hadn't tried baking non-quick
bread in years so I didn't know what I was doing there either. The
self-grown actually did double itself and have a fermented smell, and
the one brick of bread I made with it had a fantastic sour flavor. It
could very well have been that I simply didn't let the bread rise long
enough.

About the bakery starter, I've been treating it the same way since I
got it - 1-2 times a week take it out, add about 2 cups AP flour and
1.5 cups bottled water, wait until it starts growing and take out my
reserve to put back in the fridge, wait a couple more hours until it's
really active and bake with the rest. It was always a slow riser;
usually no activity at all for the first 1.5 hours, then boom, it would
seem to double in 15 minutes. Now though, it's barely moving after
hours.

So I'm 100% with you in saying that I'm pretty green at this! Not only
sourdough but bread in general. I think I need to hit the bookstore
and pick up "Bread for Dummies" or something, because I'm really
lacking basic underlying knowledge about bread in general - rising,
kneading, etc.

In the meantime my WW flour starter is already bubbly and just started
developing a froth. Once it gets really happy I'll probably add some
of the starter that I've been having problems with (and back at the
beginning I had added some of my self-grown starter to it) so I'll have
at least some modi*** of lineage.

Thanks for your suggestions! I guess I really should be keeping a log
of some sort. I'll set something up for that tonight.

dusty

While certainly possible and pretty simple in practice, it's not "easy" for
the SD newbie. While I applaud your industriousness, I recommend that you
get a known good culture from someone. Once you master the basics, without
trying to fight the unknowns of starting a culture, you can always go back
to searching for the wild yeast beasties. Drop me your smail addy off-list
and I'll be happy to send you a sample of a working culture (well, it works
for me...(:-)!).

While many posting here seem to revel in "puffery" and self-important
obfuscation; a kind & gracious fellow lurking here sent me some to get me
started. This will give me a chance to repay him for his kindness. After
all, it's only sourdough. Sourdough is supposed to be simple and inherently
elegant--we're not trying to redefine the theory of relativity here.

Yes. But are you still using your chlorinated water? Keep in mind that
simple chlorination can be defeated by letting the water sit, open, for a
day or two. But many municipalities are now using chloramines, those DO NOT
evaporate! And no amount of home treatment will make it safe to use on your critter farm...

Yeah. But it's not possible to diagnose all of the things that could be
affecting you from such a description. As far as I know, there are three
basic things that affect rising: your culture (state of health, kind or
pedigree), what you're feeding it (kind & nature of your flour), the
temperature, and to a lesser degree the hydration you're using. Assuming
that you're (using the same recipe or mechanism) keeping the hydration the
same, it'll most likely be one of the first three. While there are probably
other things as well, those should be the major elements. Get a handle on
those, and the other issues should fall in line.


Always possible, but without microscopic examination, it's hard to tell
('less they 'fess up!). Given your previous description, I'd guess that it
was SD to beging with (the 3-hour rise is a clue). But if it worked in the
past, it should still work now. Most likely something isn't agreeing with
your culture, and--Darwin's theory being a practical one--your culture has
morphed into something less active or viable. Despite what you might often
hear, the yeasts don't really "fall-out-of-the-air"...they're a natural part
of your flour. Same with the LB's. Not all strains of LB's will work with
all strains of wild yeasts to form a working symbiotic relationship.


While most any flour is okay, whole wheat probably isn't your best
"starting" medium. Rye flour seems to work best--for starting a culture.
But, like I said, it's a crap-shoot that you're gonna get a good, viable, fl
avorful culture by chance. Then, once started, I'd do all refreshments with
plain, ordinary white flour. Others posting here will most certainly have
differences...but that's the procedure that's always worked for me...

Keep the faith and keep on working it. One of these days you're going to
hit it, and you'll look back on all of these trials and tribulations, and
burst out laughing!


Regards all,
Dusty
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