Hi from a newbie. I decided a couple of weeks ago to try my hand at
sourdough;
I'm not exactly a pro, but I have some experience with regular (i.e.,
baker's-yeast-leavened) bread, and I thought SD would be an interesting
challenge. So I read all the FAQs I could find and decided to roll my
own
starter.

After a failed experiment, the thing seemed to go well. After four or
five days
of twice-a-day feeding, I had a bubbly, frothy, sour-smelling batter
that seemed
not too different from the pictures I'd seen in the net. So I took a
cup of this
starter, refreshed it with 1 cup flour and 1/2 cup water, let it
ferment for 8
hours and added two more cups flour and water as needed to get a
moderately
moist but non-sticky ball of dough, which I kneaded by hand for about
30
minutes.

I followed quite closely the recipe I found at
http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=27634, which seemed
reasonably
clear at the time. I may have ended up with a less moist dought than it
suggests, mainly because I found that the amounts the author had
specified
yielded a too-soft result which tended to stick to my hands and the
walls of the
mixing bowl, but not overly so. I let it rise as suggested, and baked.

The end result is not as bad as I feared it might be, but it's
certainly a far
shot from what I had in mind. It is far too heavy, with large bubbles
spread
unevenly through the dough rather than a uniformly airy crumb, and it
didn't
get much of an oven rise. I'm pretty certain one of the problems was
insufficient proofing, but I would very much appreciate some advice as
to the
possible cause of the large bubbles. Is it possible that the dough was
over- or
underkneaded? Is it a moisture thing? Is it simply underproofed?

I suppose a bit about the weather would be useful to help estimate
adequate
rising times. I'm at about 23°C, at sea level or so, and average
humidity is
around 60% these days. I'd very much appreciate any advice you could
give me in
this regard.

Thanks,

Taragui

mike avery

I have NEVER needed to knead a dough that long. Try 5 minutes, cover it
and let it rest for 5 minutes, then knead another 5 minutes. Some
people have to knead longer because their kneading technique is not very
efficient, but with good kneading technique, there is no need for long kneads like that.

Sticky dough is a good thing. Too dry dough is a bad thing. Dry doughs
don't rise as well as wetter doughs. Of course, there are limits at
both ends fo the scale.

Without actual measurements or knowing what sort of flour you used,
anything anyone here says is pure speculation. Still....

If it's too heavy, chances are you added too much flour. You also might
not have let it rise, or proof, long enough.

The big irregular holes are desired by most sourdough bakers. If you
don't like them, and many people don't, you should punch down your
dough, reform it, and then loaf it. Some people will do this several
times. Each time, the crumb becomes finer and more uniform.

While over-kneading can cause problems, it is all but impossible to do
that by hand. My comments about kneading time weren't focused on the
quality of the bread so much as waste of time and energy. If you can
complete the job well in 15 minutes, why spend 30 doing it?

Mike

--
....The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating
system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world...

Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
part time baker ICQ 16241692
networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230
wordsmith

Hi Mike.

In my experience with baker's yeast-fermented breads, at least, a
longer knead
yields a finer, more even crumb. And then, I like kneading. It's a
vigorous exercise
that I enjoy, so I may overindulge in it.

I should try and go for a moister dough, perhaps. My rather
unscientific habit is to
begin with a rather sticky mix and gradually add flour (by flouring my
hands and the work surface) until it stops sticking to the hands. It
seems to work for regular bread,
but then perhaps the reduced push of SD yeast requires somewhat softer
dough.


I should have mentioned that. I used run-of-the-mill bread flour, with
10% protein and
no vitamin C or amylase added. I don't have exact measurements for
hydration; the
starter was almost exactly half-and-half flour and water by weight, but
I can't specify
what the final ratio of added water was.


I was worried about overproofing resulting in gluten dissolution. The
starter
wasn't overly sour, but most guides I'd read warned about letting the
shaped
loaf rise for too long. At 23C, what do you think would be an adequate
range
for proofing time? Also, should I let the bread rise before shaping,
and then wait
for a second proofing, or is a single-step procedure the usual choice?


Oh, I see. I'll try that this time. I know exact measures ar impossible
to give,
but how long should I let the bread rise before punching and shaping?


Simply because it's an activity I enjoy. Except for pastry doughs with
added
egg yolk, whith which excessive kneading yields an overly dense
texture, I've
never found a long kneading harmful to the product. I am a total
newcomer
to SD, though, so I don't know how far my previous experiences apply to
it.

Thanks for the tips. I'll try a second batch this weekend. Best,

Taragui

mike avery

Far be it from me to keep people from getting their exercise. However,
I haven't found it necessary to be vigorous, nor to knead the dough that
long (30 minutes). I key my kneading to the needs of the dough. When
it is smooth and resilient, when it passes the windowpane test I stop
kneading. That's usually 5 minutes of kneading, a 5 minute rest and
another 5 minutes of kneading. That is, of course, when I bother
kneading at all.

This works for me for both yeasted and sourdough breads

Actually, there isn't that much difference between sourdough and yeasted
breads. Sourdough cultures have a lot of yeast in them. A softer dough
will rise better whether it is being risen by yeast, sourdough, baking
soda or baking powder. In general, wetter is better.


As I mentioned in another thread, there are lots of variables. I
normally let my bread have two rises, the first for 3 to 4 hours, the
second usually about 1/2 that. In general, the second rise takes about
1/2 the time of the first.


It all depends. Rather than basing the rise on time, you should let the
bread rise until it has doubled (more or less).

Good luck,
Mike


--
....The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating
system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world...

Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
part time baker ICQ 16241692
networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230
wordsmith