Hello, group and groupies. I am new here, but an old hand at Usenet.

Premise: If an item for dishwashing is marked "Top Rack Only" then it
should be placed in the top rack even if Heat Dry is not being used.

Inference: The heating loop comes on during the fill part of the cycle
as well as during Heat Dry, if selected.

Speculation: The purpose of the heating loop is to heat the filled
water beyond the recommended 140 deg F input temperature, for better
cleaning.

Inference: With the right supply temperature, timing rather than a
thermostat would be the sensible way to heat a given volume of water a
given number of degrees.

Conclusion: Our dishwasher is broken and our condo association is
screwing us!

Missing Information: The loop doesn't come on during the fill cycle.
Dishes come out dirty. It takes forever to get hot water; we have to
run the tub for like five minutes to get 120 F water. They charge us
indirectly for water. (Everybody pays for the water; the place is 55
years old; our water bill is very high compared to other associations;
some but not all owners complain about hot water; many owners do not
speak English; it's likely much complaining is never heard by the
association)

Problem: Aside from retrenching and insulating the supply line at the
association's expense, how can I fix this cheaply?

Questions: Could the sequencer be working wrongly? Could it be that
simple? How the hell do I get in there?

It's a Whirlpool DU3003XL-0 unit, with a single rotary control and a
Heat/Air dry switch.

Doug Goncz
Inventor; Experimental Machinist
Replikon Research
Falls Church, VA 22044-2536

I think you are screwed, but I wouldn't say it's the condo association
that's doing it, just the design of the building. When I did live in
"apartment" buildings, they were always high rises and they always had
instant hot water. In a higher quality high rise building they always had
the hot water on a loop system with a circulator pump so that no one had to
run the water and wait for it to get hot. My guess is you live in a low/mid
rise building where they didn't tend to do that.

Also, lower end and older dishwashers do not heat (or more correctly
boost/maintain the heat) in the incoming water. The heating element is only
used for drying. I don't know where your dishwasher fits in, but the owners
manual for it on the Whirlpool web site (www.whirlpool.com) does not seem to
indicate any temp boost/maintain feature. I would think they would describe
this feature if your dishwasher had it. All that is mentioned is the
importance of having the supply be at least 140 degrees.

I don't think you are going to find an easy solution to this problem other
than just running the water until it gets hot. I'm sure it's cost
prohibitive for the condo association to go back and retrofit the building.
Your other solution is to replace the dishwasher with one that does boost
and maintain the water temperature. But that is your responsibility, as
what's inside the walls of your unit is yours to fix or upgrade.

I am in a similar situation in that my dishwasher doesn't heat the water,
and I have to run the water until it is hot. But I am in a townhouse condo,
and my utility room with water heater is adjacent to my kitchen, so it isn't
a long wait. My water is also jointly billed and ends up in the monthly
condo fee.

If you want to check on the operation of the heating element, normally there
is a wiring diagram of some sort somewhere on the dishwasher. My dishwasher
is a 32 year old GE and it is so old it doesn't even have a heated dry
switch... 1973 was before anyone cared about the price of energy. On mine,
there is a wiring diagram on the back side of the door sheet metal. The
panel on mine comes off pretty easily with a few screws. Part of the wiring
diagram is a sequencing chart for the timer. It shows what functions are
activated during what parts of the cycle. Pretty easy to follow. From the
owners manual for your model, it looks like it has a mechanical timer also,
and probably has a wiring diagram with a similar sequencing chart on it. A
quick check of that sequencing chart would show whether the heating element
is ever turned on during the wash cycle. Also, I am pretty sure all
dishwashers with temperature boost have a temperature sensor... if none is
present (physically or in the wiring diagram), it is almost certain it
doesn't have temperature boost.

--
( #wff_ng_7# at #verizon# period #net# )

Just a quick followup...

I took off my dishwasher front panel to look at my sequencing chart because
it was so easy to do... just four screws, pop off the control knob, and it's
open.

A slight correction regarding the timing of the heating element, at least on
mine. The heating element does come on toward the end of the wash/rinse
cycles, and then on during the dry cycle. I presume this is to get the water
temperature back up to a reasonable range so long after the cycle has
started. There is no heating during the first 2/3 or so of the wash/rinse
cycles. If the water isn't hot enough to start, too bad.

There is no thermostat in mine (though there may be a safety thermal cutout
elsewhere).

There may be some other differences in yours, being newer and a different
manufacturer.

In addition to mine being from the era where no one cared about the cost of
energy, there were people who had their hot water heaters set for 160
degrees back then. My original water heater was rated at 65,000 Btu, and I
know of others in the 75,000 Btu range in that era. My replacement is a mere
40,000 Btu by comparison.

--
( #wff_ng_7# at #verizon# period #net# )

The rating on the heater means little actually. Do you think the 40k model
is cheaper to run than the 75k? It takes a given amount of heat to raise
the water to a given temperature. If you use a smaller heater it just takes
longer, but the amount of heat needed is still the same.

Once difference in old versus new is added insulation and perhaps more
efficient design so less heat goes up the flue, but the amount of heat in
the water remains the same.

Yes, DW detergent work better at higher temperatures. There is also the
sanitation aspect, but the harsh detergent will kill most anything.

I would think there is a limit switch on hte upper end though.


Run the water until hot, but that is a waste in your case. Add a 120 volt
water heater. In Sink Erator makes one that holds about 2 or 3 gallons.
Less t han $200 at a plumbing supply house. I don't see them on their web
site, but I just bought one for a rest room at work. It will fit under the
sink.

My point was that in a prior era people generally didn't care about energy
usage. To accommodate the wasteful habits of back then, you really did need
a bigger/more powerful water heater. The 75k water heater has a much faster
recovery rate than a 40k one. It makes a big difference if you are wasteful
in how you use hot water.

My old water heater was 65k Btu, 50 gallons. My replacement water heater is
40k Btu, 40 gallons. I ran out of hot water with the old water heater, and
never have with the new one. No, the new water heater is not dramatically
more efficient... it's that I've stopped the wasteful (hot) water use.

Even with the 40k Btu, 40 gallon water heater, I shouldn't have run out. But
I had my nephew visiting, and he single-handedly drained the hot water one
morning before I lectured him. Having never lived in an older house, he
didn't know any better. In newer houses with single lever bath/shower
controls, one can't modulate water flow... it comes on full blast. You can
only control temperature. The only thing that controls water flow is the
restrictor in the shower head.

So my nephew comes to my older house and turns the water on full blast, then
pulls the shower diverter valve. Only I had no flow restrictors in the
shower heads. It sounded like Niagara Falls in the bathroom. And it wasn't a
short shower. By the time the last person took a shower that morning, we had
run out of hot water.

After that incident, I put flow restrictor shower heads in both bathrooms.
Now even with the less powerful water heater, it would be very hard to run
out of hot water with both bathrooms in continuous use (taking into account
time to undress/shower/dry/dress, etc.). I've also got a front loader
washing machine that substantially cuts hot water use.

One thing I found out when I got the new water heater was though they still
do make the higher powered models, only ones in the 40k Btu range are
stocked by home improvement stores. Anything above that has to be special
ordered at a high cost.

--
( #wff_ng_7# at #verizon# period #net# )

Most lectures have little impact on kids. I have an oil eater HW setup.
small reservoir, but fast recovery. When my daughter started taking
extremely long showers, I just flipped the switch on the burner. After
three times, she no longer took excessively long showers.

Hey, thanks Edwin and wff_ng_7.

That 2-3 gallon unit sounds nice.

The smallest our Home Depot has is 10 gallons, but that might work.
What is that, half a tub?

We'd put it in the closet with a 30 A transfer swtich on the wall. The
way things are laid out here, you'd either use the electric dryer, or
leave the water heater running.

What do you all think about the 10 gallon heater?

Doug

Plenty for must uses, enough to give a boost to the main heater for larger
uses. I'd sure consider it. Best would be to drain off some of the main
hot water line in another fixture for a long bath, but a dishwasher only
uses about 5 or 6 gallons per wash.

I don't know... how much does that 10 gallon water heater go for? I would
think by the time you plumb it in, wire it up and such, you'd be better off
buying a new dishwasher that could heat the water itself. Or just live with
the waste of running the water until it got hot.

I'm not sure how much water a dishwasher uses during a cycle. I did a quick
look around at the Whirlpool and GE web sites and could find no information
on the topic. No point getting a small water heater if it doesn't provide
enough to get the job done.

I did come across an interesting little water heater on the Home Depot web
site. If you plug in "425740" to the search field, it should come up with a
cute little GE 2-1/2 gallon water heater. It can even be gift wrapped! ;-) I
get the feeling 2-1/2 gallons would not be big enough though.

--
( #wff_ng_7# at #verizon# period #net# )