hutchndi

HutchNDI might be interested in reviewing his posts since he set the
highest standard for being devoted to gaff at the expense of any
ostensible topical interest.

It's all there, in the Google archive. You can seriously wonder if there
is any point to posting more.

--
Dicky

Dick, I didn't realize you had such a following. There are so many posts
devoted to your insults and attitude. I don't know why more people cant just
get past your bitterness and see your great wisdom. Why, after following
your advice I was able to make a couple of the most well risen run of the
mill sourdough wonder bread lilly white loaves I could ever wish to not
bother making again.

Thanks so much. Hutch
(more gaff later)

dick adams

Yes, I get your point. Those insipid, pale, bloated loaves are
definitely not for everyone.

You might try searching the r.f.s. archive on keyword 'Harvey', in the
Author field. Harvey seemed to favor sourdough based on bakers'
yeast, as he apparently preferred the yeast flavors to the sourdough
ones.

That might be closer to your desire for Champagne-flavored bread,
as Champagne is not a sourdough product.

(Actually, purists will tell you that true Champagne bread is only
available in a certain geographical region of Old Europe.)

--
Dicky

hutchndi

You might try searching the r.f.s. archive on keyword 'Harvey', in the
Author field. Harvey seemed to favor sourdough based on bakers'
yeast, as he apparently preferred the yeast flavors to the sourdough
ones.

That might be closer to your desire for Champagne-flavored bread,
as Champagne is not a sourdough product.

(Actually, purists will tell you that true Champagne bread is only
available in a certain geographical region of Old Europe.)

--
Dicky

I'll try that search Dick, though I did find some posts by Jonathan Kandell
where he was also after the champagne taste. But now you confuse me more
(not hard to do), I had felt like the champagne notes were something more
attune to the sourdough, while yeast just got more beery. Actually I had
found "Champagne bread" in google searches and it turned out to actually
contain added champagne! Is this the true champagne bread? If you have a
link to an article about this Old Europe bread you mention (apologies if
this is a yeast bread, don't want to go off topic and offend anyone) could
you please post it?

Thanks, Hutch

dick adams

It might well be. But consider this: Beer bread is cheaper. Water
bread is the cheapest of all, unless you feel that you need triple-distilled, reverse-osmosed, etc.


In point of fact, Old-Europe bread is made from a mixture of soggy
grains frequently containing very little wheat. It is almost impossible to
mention anything about it without offending some one.

--
Dicky

jeffrey sheinberg

About 10 years ago, I had cultured a home grown starter in a cool
environment (65-F) at 100% hydration using freshly ground organic
whole grain rye flour.

The resulting starter would raise a 66% hydration dough (92% rye,
8% flax, freshly ground together) in 1-1/2 hours, to easily double
in size. The resulting crumb was very tasty, with no noticeable
sourness, a resilient, almost cake like texture, and a delicious
alcoholic aroma in the sponge, which remained in the finished
bread. The final dough contained 33% pre-fermented flour.

Unfortunately, I stopped baking for a while, and the starter was
discarded.

If I were to try to recreate this starter, I would use a Wolfgang,
Samap, or Hawo's mill. What is important in the choice of mill is
the ability to grind 100% soybeans or a 10% flax seed/90% rye
grain mixture without gumming up.

--
Jeffrey Sheinberg
for email addr: remove "l1." and change ".invalid" to ".net"

hutchndi

Perhaps I should be happy with my results as they are now, until I get
myself a mill. It seems to be the most popular flavor suggestion. Thanks

hutch

will

Hutch,

If I remember correctly, you indicated that you build a sponge, add
some starter to it and then give it a good amount of time to get
fermenting. Then you add the balance of flour and retard. That works,
I've done it that way plenty of times. Mostly when I'm in a hurry.

What I do now is build a sponge, innoculate it, distributing the
culture thoroughly. Then I add the balance of flour immediately and
retard. There is no initial fermentation of the sponge. It's only there
to disperse the culture. Yes it does begin to rise in the refrigerator,
but not to the extent it does when I do a multiple starter refresh and
long, room temperature, sponge build. After the retard, I let the dough
come to room temperature by rising once thoroughly in the bowl. After
this first room-temp rise I place it on my silicone mat and start the
stretch and folds. I keep it covered with an old dishwasher's bus
container.

The retard can be rather long if you wish since you haven't allowed the
sponge to ferment.


In bullit points it goes like this:

Day 1: take starter out of refrigerator and refresh (2 ounces becomes
4 ounces)
Day 2: reserve 2 ounces back to starter container, use 2 ounces to
innoculate a cold water sponge
Day 2: immediately build dough from sponge and refrigerate.
Day 3 (or 4) let aged dough come to room temp
Day 3 (or 4) perform 2 or 3 stretch and folds about 90 minutes apart
Day 3 (or 4) after last s&f, let dough relax 30 minutes and round for
final proof

Final proof, slash and bake

I started doing this simply for convenience, probably I had a business
trip and I knew the family would need bread when I got back. (They
won't eat "fast" bread anymore, unlike DickA, they know the
difference). Anyway, I still do it. Meaning, I adjust the size of the
innoculation (more or less ounces of refreshed starter) or the amount
of fermentation I allow the sponge: none to overnight, to fit my
intended bake window. There are no breads however that see less than 12
hours in cold storage. My usual is 24 to 36 hours. What I suggested for
you was the extreme end of this technique: small innoculation, no
sponge ferment, long cold retard.

As I am sure you have noticed, by now, all of your breads are coming
out pretty good. The average non- baker would probably worship your
effort. You are lucky, Hutch, I think you really get it. The elusive
loaf is always out there. Every once in a while I get a loaf that is
quite extraordinary. I always look for it, think about it, and hope for
it. I have found that long deliberate ripening of the dough and fairly
minimal mechanical mixing works the best.

If you ever do get around to getting a mill, don't screw around with
one of the $300 special purpose jobs that do 3 pounds of flour a
minute. Don't get a WhisperMill, they damage the starch. Get a small
KitchenAid stand mixer. You don't need a big one, you don't need the
Gourmet model or the Artisan model, just the old little one. It's easy
to pick out. It is the cheapest one. I have a big one (which is
bullshit) and a little one, so I know this. Then get an extra mixing
bowl and the grain mill attachment ($85 on ebay). I suppose there is no
hurry, I didn't get a mixer until I had been making bread for 10 years.

Will

here's a fun link I picked up in Jonathan Kandell's yahoo group. They
are on a cloche vs. Hearthkit thread.

http://www.sonic.net/~damico/bread/cloche.html

dick adams

They know that edible bread takes 3 or 4 days to make because it needs
to be made in the refrigerator?

They don't know that here.

Fast is an accusation seldom applied to me or my activities.

But thank you very much anyway.

--
Dicky

hutchndi

Will, your method makes total sense to me, the flavor I am looking for can
have allot more time to develop that way before my dough turns to soup, and
it will definitely be my next effort. Thanks a bunch-Hutch

(good luck with Dicky)

will

I lied. I make biscuits quickly.

Not in the winter. In the winter the cellar works just fine. Good for aging sausage too.


Keep it a secret!


Me either. The wife thinks the lawn needs to mowed. I always say "not so fast".


Thankyou. This morning I got no appreciation from the family. I didn't
make enough bagels. They didn't have seeds. Who eats a plain bagel? My
little one, 14, wants a bialy. If I made them, he'd want pierogis.

Will