swagman

Accusing your own fellow Jew Shahak of being a Nazi? Not fair, really!
Shahak's condemnation of Zionists is far worse than that coming from the
Nazis!

mathias donien

....like so many others in order to appease them.


Note
Occupied Territories means in reality Israeli land occupied by
Islamofascists who oppress all inhabitants of the region
--
If we believe absurd, we will do terrible. Voltaire (1694-1778)
http://www.rsf.org/predators.php3 Predators of Press Freedom
http://www.fair.org/ Fairness & Accuracy In Reporting
http://www.honestreporting.com/ Media Critiques

bernardz

In article <bhm71i$u62a$1@ID-127596.news.uni-berlin.de>, me@privacy.net
says...


Dr. Hannah Arendt is a fine one to quote she was not a pro-Palestinian,
and supported the existence of Israel as a Jewish state.

bernardz

In article <vvw%a.10350$f44.7018@fe04.atl2.webusenet.com>, lupin88
@bellsouth.net says...

Maybe you should do a basic English comprehension course? I nor
KenMcVayNAMBLA in the original post ever talked about Dr Shahak.

But I am not surprised that a nut case like you has brought him up.

susan cohen

I put those people in the same category as capos: forced by cir***stances to
save whoever they could however they could. Susan

jim f.

I think that was true for many of them, and I think that Arendt has been
rightly criticized for not fully appreciating the extremely difficult
situations
that many of these people found themselves in. However, at least some
of them seem to have attempted to use this situation to advance their
own personal and political agendas at the expense of fellow Jews.
That seems to have been the case with Dr. Rudolf Kastner who helped
the Nazis to send several hundred thousand Hungarian Jews to their
deaths in exchange for allowing several thousand Zionist activists
and some prominent Jews to emigrate to Palestine. Was that a fair
bargain for the hundreds of thousands of Hungarian Jews that
Dr. Kastner helped to send to their deaths? I think not. Jim F.

susan cohen

Of course, you make it sound as tho' it was either that deal, or all or more
Jews go free. But it wasn't. It was either that deal or more Jews *dead.*

Susan

jim f.

But part of the deal that Kastner negotiated with Eichmann and other
Nazis was that he and his organization would guarantee peace in
the both the ghettoes and the concentration camps. That suggests
to me that the Nazis perceived that their control over the ghettoes
and even over the concentration camps was actually quite tenuous,
if they felt it necessary to negotiate such a deal with Kastner. I would
submit that more Jews would have survived if Kastner had not
negotiated such a deal, that the success of the Nazis in killing
massive numbers of Hungarian Jews was predicated on the existence
of "good order" in the ghettoes and camps, which Kastner's Zionists
helped to enforce.

Anyway, I think it might be enlightening to read Judge Banjamin Halevi's
remarks
in his decision concerning the case in which the Attorney General of Israel
prosecuted Markiel Grünwald for libel against Kastner who was at the
time a spokesman for the Ministry for Trade and Industry for
Ben Gurion's government

--------------------------------------------------


The Attorney General v. Malkiel Grünwald

This material should be studied carefully. The masses of Jews from
Hungary's ghettos obediently boarded the deportation trains without
knowing their fate. They were full of confidence in the false information
that they were being transferred to Kenyermeze. The Nazis could not
have misled the masses of Jews so conclusively had they not spread
their false information through Jewish channels.

The Jews of the ghettos would not have trusted the Nazi or Hungarian rulers.
But they had trust in their Jewish leaders. Eichmann and others used this
known fact as part of their calculated plan to mislead the Jews. They were
able to deport the Jews to their extermination by the help of Jewish
leaders.
The false information was spread by the Jewish leaders. The local leaders
of the Jews of Kluj and Nodvarod knew that other leaders were spreading
such false information and did not protest. Those of the Jews who tried to
warn their friends of the truth were persecuted by the Jewish leaders in
charge of the local 'rescue work'. The trust of the Jews in the misleading
information and their lack of knowledge that their wives, children and
themselves were about to be deported to the gas chambers of Auschwitz
led the victims to remain quiescent in their ghettos. It seduced them into
not
resisting or hampering the deportation orders. Dozens of thousands of Jews
were guarded in their ghettos by a few dozen police. Yet even vigorous young
Jews made no attempt to overpower these few guards and escape to nearby
Rumania. No resistance activities to the deportations were organized in
these
ghettos. And the Jewish leaders did everything in their power to soothe the
Jews
in the ghettos and to prevent such resistance activities. The same Jews who
spread in Kluj and Nodvarod the false rumor of Kenyermeze, or confirmed it,
the same public leaders who did not warn their own people against the
misleading
statements, the same Jewish leaders who did not organize any resistance or
any
sabotage of deportations . . . these same leaders did not join the people of
their
community in their ride to Auschwitz, but were all included in the Rescue
train.
The Nazi organizers of extermination and the perpetrators of extermination
permitted Rudolf Kastner and the members of the Jewish Council in Budapest
to
save themselves, their relatives, and friends. The Nazis did this as a means
of
making the local Jewish leaders, whom they favoured, dependent on the Nazi
regime, dependent on its good will during the time of its fatal deportation
schedule.
In short, the Nazis succeeded in bringing the Jewish leaders into
collaboration
with the Nazis at the time of the catastrophe.

The Nazi chiefs knew that the Zionists were a most vital element in Jewry
and the most trusted by the Jews. The Nazis drew a lesson from the Warsaw
ghetto and other belligerent ghettos. They learned that Jews were able to
sell
their lives very expensively if honorably guided. Eichmann did not want a
second
Warsaw. For this reason, the Nazis exerted themselves to mislead and bribe
the Jewish leaders. The personality of Rudolph Kastner made him a convenient
catspaw for Eichmann and his clique, to draw into collaboration and
make their task easier.

The question here is not, as stated by the Attorney General in his
summation,
whether members of the Jewish Rescue Committee were or were not capable
of fulfilling their duty without the patronage of the S.S. chiefs. It is
obvious
that without such S.S. Nazi patronage the Jewish Rescue Committee could
not have existed, and could have acted only as an underground. The question
is, as put by the lawyer for the defense, why were the Nazis interested in
the
existence of the Rescue Committee? Why did the S.S. chiefs make every effort
to encourage the existence of the Jewish Rescue Committee? Did the
exterminators
turn into rescuers?

The same question rises concerning the rescue of prominent Jews by these
German killers of Jews. Was the rescue of such Jews a part of the
extermination
plan of the killers ? The support given by the extermination leaders to
Kastner's Rescue Committee proves that indeed there was a place for Kastner
and his friends in their Final Solution for the Jews of Hungary - their
total
annihilation. The Nazi's patronage of Kastner, and their agreement to let
him
save six hundred prominent Jews, were part of the plan to exterminate the
Jews.
Kastner was given a chance to add a few more to that number. The bait
attracted him. The opportunity of rescuing prominent people appealed to him
greatly. He considered the rescue of the most important Jews as a great
personal
success and a success for Zionism. It was a success that would also justify
his
conduct - his political negotiation with Nazis and the Nazi patronage of his
committee. When Kastner received this present from the Nazis, Kastner
sold his soul to the German Satan.

The sacrifice of the vital interests of the majority of the Jews, in order
to
rescue the prominents, was the basic element in the agreement between
Kastner
and the Nazis. This agreement fixed the division of the nation into two
unequal
camps: a small fragment of prominents, whom the Nazis promised Kastner to
save, on the one hand, and the great majority or Hungarian Jews whom the
Nazis designated for death, on the other hand. An imperative condition for
the
rescue of the first camp by the Nazis was that Kastner will not interfere in
the
action of the Nazis against the other camp and will not hamper them in its
extermination. Kastner fulfilled this condition. He concentrated his efforts
in the
rescue of the prominents and treated the camp of the doomed as if they had
already been wiped out from the book of the living. One cannot estimate the
damage caused by Kastner's collaboration and put down the number of victims
which it cost Hungarian Jews. These are not only the thousands of Jews in
Nodvarod or any other community in the border area, Jews who could escape
through the border, had the chief of their rescue committee fulfilled his
duty toward them.

All of Kastner's answers in his final testimony were a constant effort to
evade
this truth. Kastner has tried to escape through every crack he could find
in the wall of evidence. When one crack was sealed in his face, he darted
quickly to another".

.. . . . . .

From this gathering in Budapest, it is obvious that the 'new line' stretched
from Himmler to Hoess, from Jutner to Becher and Krumey. According to
Kastner, however, these Nazis were all active in rescuing Jews. This meeting
of these important German guests in Budapest exposes the 'rescue' work of
Becher in its true light. It reveals also the extent of Kastner's
involvement in
the inner circle of the chief German war criminals. Just as the Nazi war
criminals
knew they needed an alibi and hoped to achieve it by the rescue of a few
Jews
at the eleventh hour, so Kastner also needed an alibi for himself.
Collaboration
between the Jewish Agency Rescue Committee and the Exterminators of the
Jews was solidified in Budapest and Vienna. Kastner's duties were part and
parcel of the general duties of the S.S. In addition to its Extermination
Department and Looting Department, the Nazi S.S. opened a Rescue
Department headed by Kastner. All these extermination, robbery and rescue
activities of the S.S. were coordinated under the management of Heinrich
Himmler . . . Kastner perjured himself knowingly in his testimony before
this
court when he denied he had interceded in Becher's behalf. Moreover,
he concealed the important fact that he interceded for Becher in the name
of the Jewish Agency and the Jewish World Congress.

As to the contents of Kastner's affidavit, it was enough for the defense to
provide Becher was a war criminal. It was up to the prosecution to remove
Becher from this status, if they wished to negate the affidavit. The
Attorney
General admitted in his summation that Becher was a war criminal. The lies
in the contents of Kastner's affidavit, the lies in his testimony concerning
the
do***ent, and Kastner's knowing participation in the activities of Nazi war
criminals, and his participation in the last minute fake rescue activities -
all
these combine to show one overwhelming truth - that this affidavit was not
given in good faith. Kastner knew well, as he himself testified, that Becher
had never stood up against the stream of Jewish extermination, as Kastner
has declared in the affidavit. The aims of Becher and his superior, Himmler,
were not to save Jews but to serve the Nazi regime with full compliance.

These is not truth and no good faith in Kastner's testimony, 'I never
doubted
for one moment the good intention of good Becher'. It is clear that the
positive
recommendation by Kastner, not only in his own name but also in the name
of the Jewish Agency and the Jewish World Congress was of decisive
importance for Becher. Kastner did not exaggerate when he said that
Becher was released by the Allies because of his personal intervention.
The lies in the affidavit of Kastner and the contradictions and various
pretexts,
which were proven to be lies, were sufficient to annul the value of his
statements
and to prove that there was no good faith in his testimony in favor of this
German war criminal. Kastner's affidavit in favor of Becher was a wilfully
false affidavit given in favor of a war criminal to save him from trial and
punishment in Nuremberg. Therefore, the defendant, Malkiel Grünwald,
was correct in his accusations against Rudolf Kastner in the first,
second and fourth of his statements."

From the Judgement of Judge Benjamin Halevi, Criminal Case 124/53;
Attorney General v. Malchiel Greenwald, District Court, Jerusalem, June 22,
1955.
----------------------------------------------------------- Jim F.

mark k

Isn't it amazing that there are gullible readers of books by Jewish authors
who believe what the Jews write about themselves and the Nazis is correct?

susan cohen

Oh, I disagree.
The solution to unrest in either the ghettoes or the camps was killing more
Jews.
I don't think that the Jews really could have won out *by then*.

Yes, I do understand what you are saying; but I think the Germans were just
trying to concentrate more men on the war front than the extermination front
(still amazes me that they could be that sick). Susan

this


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