beacon

news:<49T0b.28378$pK2.44636@news.indigo.ie>...


The IRSP are NOT SF not more than the UUP are the DUP.


One might. And ione might also show links to where ones claims. And one
might realist the claim is NOT that the IRA ever carried out secterian
killlings but that they caRRIED OUT AS MANY SECTERIAN killings as Loyalists.
They carried out no such proportion. Indeed I venture to say that if you
consult the CAIN database of deaths you will find a decrease in the
proportion of secterian killings by the IRA and that of 2054 deaths only one
AFAIK in this thread has been suggested is secterian from the last decade
( a farmer near the border) and no evidence it ever happened has been
supplied.

beacon

( but by which group. The IRA is not specified)


http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/chron/1986.html

NOTE: I AM showing ONLY REPUBLICAN killings below. I already showedLoyalists
killed FAR more proportion of Catholics than the REpublicans did of
Protestants.

11 Feburary 1986
John McCabe (25) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Irish Republican Army (IRA)

20 May 1986
Colm McKevitt (30) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Irish Republican Army (IRA)

16 June 1986
Terence McKeever (30) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Irish Republican Army (IRA)

5 August 1986
Patrick Murray (30) Catholic
Status: Irish Republican Army (IRA), Killed by: Irish Republican Army (IRA)
10 September 1986
David McVeigh (37) Catholic
Status: Irish Republican Army (IRA), Killed by: Irish Republican Army

Well in 1986 (even excluding killing other IRA) the IRA killed LESS
Protestant civialians than Catholics
So 1987


Civilian employed at Magilligan Prison. Not a justification but a non secterian reason.

Shot during street disturbances, Alliance Avenue, Ardoyne, Belfast.
I suppose that during ariot you can identify Protestants? Or might you target the rioters?

This could have been secterian.

Thats 15 (even taking in the fact that Enniskillen was not tarketed against
Protestants)


20 January 1987
Thomas Power (34) Catholic
Status: Irish National Liberation Army (INLA), Killed by: Irish People's
Liberation Organisation (IPLO)
20 January 1987
John O'Reilly (26) Catholic
Status: Irish National Liberation Army (INLA), Killed by: Irish People's
Liberation Organisation (IPLO)
31 January 1987
Mary McGlinchey (32) Catholic
Status: ex-Irish National Liberation Army (xINLA), Killed by: not known
5 Feburary 1987
Anthony McCluskey (32) Catholic
Status: Irish People's Liberation Organisation (IPLO), Killed by: Irish
National Liberation Army (INLA)
07 March 1987
Thomas Maguire (19) Catholic
Status: Irish People's Liberation Organisation (IPLO), Killed by: Irish
National Liberation Army (INLA)
4 March 1987
Fergus Conlon (31) Catholic
Status: Civilian Political Activist (CivPA), Killed by: Irish National
Liberation Army (INLA)
5 March 1987
Gerard S****son (29) Catholic
Status: Irish People's Liberation Organisation (IPLO), Killed by: Irish
National Liberation Army (INLA)
15 March 1987
Anthony McCarthy (31) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Irish National Liberation Army (INLA)
21 March 1987
Emmanuel Gargan (25) Catholic
Status: Irish National Liberation Army (INLA), Killed by: Irish People's
Liberation Organisation (IPLO)
22 March 1987
Kevin Duffy (20) Catholic
Status: Irish National Liberation Army (INLA), Killed by: Irish People's
Liberation Organisation (IPLO)
02 May 1987
Finbarr McKenna (33) Catholic
Status: Irish Republican Army (IRA), Killed by: Irish Republican Army (IRA)
23 July 1987
William Megrath (46) Catholic
Status: Ulster Defence Regiment (UDR), Killed by: Irish Republican Army
(IRA)
26 August 1987
Michael Malone (35) Catholic
Status: Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC), Killed by: Irish Republican Army
(IRA)
01 September 1987
Eamon Maguire (33) Catholic
Status: Irish Republican Army (IRA), Killed by: Irish Republican Army (IRA)
8 October 1987
Patrick Deery (31) Catholic
Status: Irish Republican Army (IRA), Killed by: Irish Republican Army (IRA)
28 October 1987
Edward McSheffrey (29) Catholic
Status: Irish Republican Army (IRA), Killed by: Irish Republican Army (IRA)
08 December 1987
Patrick Cunningham (27) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Irish National Liberation Army (INLA)

That 18 EXCLUDING the Catholics killed by Loyalists. So how does that show
the REpublicans (or the IRA) are more secterian than Loyalists?

What happened to 1988? you skipped a year when 40 Catholics were killed and
35 Protestants. And the 35 includes UDR ARMY UDA UFF etc. so they were not secterian.

All three killed together. Possibly secterian

Off duty prision officer. Probably not secterian.

Cant find him in 1989. where is your evidence?

Thats 4 possibles from 1989.
Now lets see if the Loyalists were less or about the same in 1989.
Readers note: This time I leave out the Catholics killed by Republicans.


http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/chron/1989.html

18 January 1989
Ian Catney (27) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF)
09 Feburary 1989
Anthony Fusco (33) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF)
12 Feburary 1989
Patrick Finucane (38) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Ulster Freedom Fighters (UFF)
14 Feburary 1989
John Davey (61) Catholic
Status: Civilian Political Activist (CivPA), Killed by: Ulster Volunteer
Force (UVF)
although he was a SF member. so I will say not secterian here.
20 Feburary 1989
Patrick Feeny (32) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Ulster Freedom Fighters (UFF)
10 March 1989
James McCartney (38) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Protestant Action Force (PAF)
17 March 1989
Niall Davies (42) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF)
19 March 1989
David Braniff (63) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF)
04 April 1989
Gerard Casey (29) Catholic
Status: Irish Republican Army (IRA), Killed by: Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF)
5 May 1989
Malachy Trainor (34) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF)
24 June 1989
Liam McKee (36) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Ulster Freedom Fighters (UFF)
23 July 1989
John Devine (37) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: non-specific Loyalist group (LOY)
25 August 1989
Loughlin Maginn (28) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Ulster Freedom Fighters (UFF)
2 September 1989
Patrick McKenna (43) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF)
9 November 1989
Michael Devlin (33) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF)

thats 14 probably secterian by Loyalists. Nearly fourtimes more.
I will skip 1990

Care to explain how it is that the IRA are "as secterian as" Loyalists when
even considering possible secterian killings that Loyalists committed much
more secterian killings? Note the following qoute "every bit as secterian
as" beloe (in *****'s? I did not claim that the IRA never carried out secterian killings.


*******


*******

[snip]

redhandluke

secterian

86-90


showedLoyalists


against

<snipped>

I asked you to explain the reason why these people were murdered.I asking
you to explain why the Republican movement felt it nessary to murder these
innocent Protestants.Answer the question and stop attempting to cloud the
issue with killing by Loyalists.We all know Loyalists are guilty of
sectarian killings so there is little for you to be gained bring the
Loyalists into the debate again.Now answer the question!


and

You answer the question of those innocent Protestants that were
murdered,they are just as dead as those Catholics murdered by Loyalists.Stop
evading answering the question.

Why were the above people murdered by the Republican movement?Your movement
aspires to be non sectarian and to love their fellow Protestants(as long as
their not Unionists,according to you)then why did they murder these people?
..


<snipped>

when

We all know Loyalists committed sectarian killings,so again no bonus points
for you.You claimed that Republicans were only ever sectarian at the start
of the troubles.I listed Protestants killed past that time and now you admit
that Republicans commit sectarian murder,thanks for that.But i already knew.

Yes they certainly are.

beacon

You asked that because I disagreed with YOUR claim that the IRA were as
secterian as Loyalist paramilitaries. And I answered it. Because they have a
DIFFERENT motivation. I also stated that I did not deny IRA secterian
killings EVER happening. Just that the bulk were 30 years ago and there has
been a constant decline in them.


Sorry I have to stop typing to say my Angelus.


But you can not try the straw man on me. the issue is YOUR CLAIM that the
IRA are just as secterian as Loyalists. Don't you remember?


And we all know that the IRA have also committed secterian killings. But
youapparently know that : *******


*******

So where is your evidence?


Do not try to invent straw man arguments.

REaders note : Straw man fallacy: attempting to refute one's opponent's
proposition by attacking the misrepresentation of the opponent's position.

What question. You try to shift the position as if i claimed that the IRA
never committed secterian killings. On 17 august I wrote:


news:1061137463.573834@ananke.eclipse.net.uk...

Newsgroups: ni.politics,soc.culture.irish,uk.current-events.n-ireland
Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2003 10:10 PM
Subject: Re: Loyalists up the ante

[ME} REad what I wrote. I showed that MOST of the so called evidence was
rubbish.
I also accept that sectarian killings did occur by the IRA in the 1970s.

....
I do not deny that secterian killings by Republicans ever happened. Where
did I claim they never happened? I claimed that the IRA and their ilk are
not motivated to destroy Protestants. That is a myth.

....
Just because I shopw their reasons does not mean I justify their actions.
But it does mean that the Loyalist groups who claim that Protestants are
"under seige " are wrong. It removes the fear of "Catholics trying to
exterminate you " which drives their secterian agenda and gives them their
power. Just as "well if a majority want a United Ireland then you can have
it" removes the Republican Agenda for killing people. THAT is why it is
important to dispell the secterian myth which propagates Loyalist violence.
[end quote from me]


Please stick with the issue. YOUR evidence to support YOUR CLAIM that

******* [end your claim]


people?

See the refreence above marked Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2003 10:10 PM


REpublicans were ***every bit sectarian as *** according to you. Evidence please?

No I didn't. I claimed that the only killings I was aware of were in the
1970s but that the percentage of secterian killings were in constant
decline. any later ones which I have not seen evidence of except that
Protestants who were civilians were indeed killed. I do not deny these might
be secterian. But that is a straw man. The number today (if any ) the number
in the last decade (if any) and the numbers since 1985 represent a much
smaller proportion. Even if you added up ALL Protestant civilians killed by
the IRA EVEN COUNTING THE 1970s you would still not approach the proportion
of Catholics killed by Loyalists. I showed where to find the ststs. If I am
wrong show me where.


knew.

I admit that these cases might well have been secterian. Maybe more evidence
is needed. But if your criterion for "secterian" is people who are not
paramilitary not military not security and are civilians (not political
activists) then you may define several each year as secterian. But EVEN
ACCEPTING THESE they come NOWHERE NEAR you claim that
****Republican terrorist are as every bit sectarian as their Loyalist
counterparts.****


And your evidence is?

redhandluke

a


has


At last a half honest answer.For a change you have'nt attempted to deny that
Republicans have been guilty of sectarianism.


these


Ok let me know when you find out,i really would value your opinion on
sectarian murders by Republicans.


I have proven that Republicans are every bit capable of sectarian murder.My
opinion of why Loyalists attacked more innocent Catholics stands.

You have the evidence,you have also admitted they are sectarian.


Again stop evading the question.What are you afraid of?

There is little point in cutting and pasting previous posts without using
the whole post.You have snipped the continuing discussion,so whats the
point?The points you have raised are wrong.You say that Loyalists use the
excuse of "under siege" to murder Catholics,when must of their violence is
in reaction to violence from Republicans.You also claim that must of the
violence that originates from Loyalist terrorists is sectarian so therefore
religious of nature.I can bet you a million quid the vast majority of
murders committed by Loyalists did'nt happen because Loyalists disagreed
with the Catholic religion.


I have thanks.


You still have not answered my question.Why did the IRA target and execute innocent Protestants?


You have the evidence i have gave you a brief look at some Republican
sectarain murders.You responce is?


You are so gutless to admit Irish Republicans are not above sectarian
murder.You "guess they might be sectarian"?Either they are or they are'nt.


The number today (if any ) the number


Why do you believe that those attacked by Loyalists were murdered because of
the religion they follow?Religion played little part in the main reason they
were attacked.

Yes they are.Loyalists never had the advantage of Republican terrorists in
that they (Republicans) could quite easily identify their quarry.Thus their
victims tended to be completely random and as such many innocents were
killed.This does not prove killing on religious grounds because Protestants
did'nt like the way Catholics whorshipped God.

Loyalist

At Cains site,you have the examples don't ignore them because you don't like
the outcome.

beacon

I wasn't. I was suggestion (my opinion) that removing reasons given for
violence (whether the reasons are justified or not) will remove violence.

Well you must have come into the thread late. You thought wrong. The
question was whether the IRA are JUST AS secterian. I ws trying to move on
from this (i.e they are NOT as secterian) to why IRA violence decreased.
Motivation.

lisieux

I gave up the derisory playing of word games years ago. Do we make a
important distinction between one child ****ographer and another
utilizing the criteria that one has onlly made _some_ child
****ography material?

If I did accept your premise, I would (in an ideal world) expect to
find 'one' critical quotation from Gerry Adams condemning the
sectarian killings of 'parts' of the IRA for every four references to
the killings by the UDA/UFF/FRU.

That would also protect the notion of 'proportionality' you seem to be
trying to sell in the same way I use to sell the same idea. The
difference between what I was doing then and now is that the war is
over.

beacon

news:<QUW1b.28786$pK2.45503@news.indigo.ie>...


I note you try to pick an example of the type of people everyone shouled
have to illustrate your principle. Okay then. Suppose it was found that
there was a huge correlation between isntances of child ****agraphy and
people who came from backgrounds whgere they were in all male borstals. Now
we can all accept the child ****agropher was wrong but do you think that the
background of this population was worth looking into. Now suppose getting
rid of borstals actually brought about a decrease in child ****ography.
Suppose you identified another causal factor which correlated with something
else (say people who eat fish). Suppose you got into a debate with a group
of fish eating pedophiles. If they said that people who went to borstals eat
as much fish as them would you ask them for evidence that boprstal people
eat as much fish as them? Or would you just accept that the the underlying
factor of going to borstals was just a coincuidence and it was really the
fact they eat fish all along (in spite of being shown evidence about borstal ****ographers fish diet)?


Cart before the horse here. Whether people condemn it to the same degree or
not does not mean that the amount of killings happen happen for a particular
reason. How many people condemned the killing of black slaves in seven****th century America?

But was the IRA involved in a "war against Protestants" to the extent that
Loyalists were in a "war against Catholics" is the question.

chesney christ

A certain . Telmey®, of soc.culture.irish "fame",
writes :

The RC church doesn't get away with that sectarian stunt these days. The
parents are within their rights to tell the church to go jump; they can
and do. These days the church is so desperate to try to get people
through it's doors that it will make quite a lot of small compromises to
do so. Not surprising - the RC church's decreased relevance in Ireland
is becoming chronic - I read that there was something like one priest
ordained in Ireland last year.

--

"Jokes mentioning ducks were considered particularly funny." - cnn.com

chesney christ

A certain Beacon, of soc.culture.irish "fame", writes :


Most sane readers have by now given up on this very boring thread.
There's only so much of this "he said you said I said she said" drivel
that people are willing to follow.

--

"Jokes mentioning ducks were considered particularly funny." - cnn.com