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1 21st May 19:41
bschier
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Default What's the difference between Cuba and China, Dan?


Although labelling myself as an "Marxist ... theoretician" would
require disgarding modesty, I will however give a reply to the above
question written from a Marxist perspective:

1. Although both the political party having a predominant (if not
exclusive) influence on the politics of both countries is called the
"Communist Party," China's leadership is Stalinist. Cuba's leadership
is revolutionary, based in part on the power and activities of mass
organizations (including trade unions). China's rulers suppress any
sign of mobilization to keep the masses out of politics (e.g., with
tanks to TianAnMien Square), while in Cuba the leadership not only
encourages mass moblizations against imperialism (especially its
ringleader in Washington) and its policies, but provides the principal
speaker(s) at those rallies, which sometimes have drawn more than a
million people (on an island nation whose total population is only
about 11 million).

2. By sheer coincidence, my 1997 trip to Cuba began at the same time
as the beginning of the Congress of the Chinese Communist Party, and I
read newspaper reports on same while waiting at airports in the U.S.
and Mexico. The newsapers (especially the Los Angeles Times) noted
that the Chinese Communist Party had a highest number / ratio of
college graduates than any other and interviewed some of its cadres
about why they were motivated to join the Chinese Communist Party.
The predominant response given was that joining the Chinese Communist
Party provided a ticket for their future promotion and/or privilege.
Joining the Cuban Communist Party is not a matter of individuals with
motivation of self-advancement "nominating" themselves (as is the case
in China and all of the Stalinist parties), but requires nomination by
those who recognize an individual's self-sacrifice and/or dedication
to advancing the goals of the Revolution.

3. While China's leaders have ********ly become fans of market
mechanisms (if not also capitalism itself), Cuba's leaders, especially
Cuban president Fidel Castro, have stated that Cuba should never take
the capitalist road. The contrast between Stalinism and Cuban
policies is partially contained in a 1995 speech of Fidel Castro,
which addressed this matter. (Of course, with hours-long speeches,
Fidel never addresses just one topic.)

"Socialism needed to be perfected, not destroyed; the only countries
who stood to gain from the destruction of socialism were the
imperialist countries. At first it was a big celebration, but now many
western politicians are afraid because they don't know what's going on
over there. It's a Third World country, an exporter of raw materials,
with extremely powerful nuclear weapons and with great internal risks,
as we have seen very recently. For what? I believe that peace and
disarmament had been fought for and I think that a wiser world would
have sought to achieve via negotiations what could have been attained
without the dissolution and disintegration of the Soviet Union.

"It was said here that this occurred because of errors within the
model. It wasn't only that - it can't be described in one word - they
allowed themselves to be infiltrated from within, they allowed
themselves to be influenced by the propaganda of the consumer society,
forgetting that for centuries this was the fruit of colonialism and
the plunder of the peoples. They allowed themselves to be blinded by
capitalism, and there were many people who believed that any day they
would be living like people in Paris, London, all those places, that's
the reality. We are now seeing the results, there was ingenuousness,
incompetence, a total recipe for the destruction of that which
millions of Hitler's soldiers were unable to destroy, to destroy that
which cost 27 million lives in the war. The objectives and ideals for
which they fought were well worth saving."

-- Barry Schier
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2 21st May 19:42
pl
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Default What's the difference between Cuba and China, Dan?


news:<S7rBc.410262$Ar.401121@twister01.bloor.is.ne t.cable.rogers.com>...

Nope.
Cuba is Stalinist.
See these laws:

1.. Article 144, which defines the crime of desacato, or "disrespect." It
states that anyone who threatens, slanders, defames, insults, harms or in
anyway outrages or offends, verbally or in writing, the dignity or honor of
an authority, public official, or their agents or auxiliaries, in the
exercise of their functions or because of them can be imprisoned for between
three months and one year or fined or both. If the act of disrespect is
directed at the head of state or other senior officials the penalty is a
prison term from one to three years.
2.. Articles 208 and 209, which define the crime of asociación ilícita, or
"illicit association." These articles state that anyone belonging to an
unregistered association can be fined or imprisoned for between one and
three months. The promoters or leaders of such an association can be fined
or imprisoned for between three months and a year. Anyone who participates
in illegal meetings or demonstrations can be fined or imprisoned for between
one and three months. The organizers of illegal meetings or demonstrations
can be fined or imprisoned for between three months and a year.
3.. Article 103, which defines the crime of propaganda enemiga, or "enemy
propaganda." It states that anyone who incites against the social order,
international solidarity or the socialist state by means of verbal, written
or any other kind of propaganda, or who makes, distributes or possesses such
propaganda, can be imprisoned from between one to eight years. Anyone who
spreads false news or malicious predictions likely to cause alarm or
discontent among the population, or public disorder, can be imprisoned from
between one and four years. If the mass media are used, the sentence can be
from seven to fif**** years in prison.
4.. Article 207, which defines the crime of asociación para delinquir, or
"associating with others to commit crimes." It states that if three or more
persons join together in a group to commit crimes, they can be imprisoned
for between one and three years, simply for meeting together. If the only
objective of the group is to provoke disorder or interrupt family or public
parties, spectacles or other community events or to commit other anti-social
acts, the penalty is a fine or a prison sentence of between three months and
one year.
5.. Article 115, which defines the crime of difusión de falsas
informaciones contra la paz internacional, or "dissemination of false
information against international peace." It states that anyone who spreads
false news with aim of disturbing international peace or putting in danger
the prestige or credit of the Cuban State or its good relations with another
state can be imprisoned for between one and four years.
6.. Article 143, which defines the crime of resistencia, or "resistance."
On occasion, the crime is referred to as desobediencia, or "disobedience."
It states that anyone who resists an official in the exercise of his duties
can be imprisoned for between three months and a year or fined. If the
official is trying to apprehend a criminal or someone who has escaped from
prison, the penalty is a prison term from two to five years.
7.. Articles 72-90, which define the crime of peligrosidad, or
"dangerousness." These articles come under the heading, "The Dangerous
Status and Security Measures," a section of the Penal Code under which
someone can be sentenced for up to four years in prison on the grounds that
the authorities believe the individual has a "special proclivity" to commit
crimes, even though he or she might not have actually committed a crime.
These articles broadly define "dangerous" people as those who act in a
manner that contradicts "socialist morality" or engage in "anti-social
behavior." Moreover, Article 75 provides for an "official warning" to people
the authorities deem to be in danger of becoming "dangerous," i.e., those
who are not yet "dangerous" but who are regarded as having criminal
tendencies because of their "ties or relations with people who are
potentially dangerous to society, other people, and to the social, economic
and political order of the socialist State."
The Inter-American Commission on Human Rights (IACHR) concludes that because
of "their lack of precision and their subjective nature," the legal
definitions of "dangerousness" and such terms as "socialist legality" and
"standards of socialist coexistence,"
constitute a source of juridical insecurity which creates conditions
permitting the Cuban authorities to take arbitrary action.22
In other words, the Penal Code articles which define "dangerousness"
constitute a catch-all mechanism which gives the government the legal
justification for taking any citizen it wants out of circulation. As Human
Rights Watch/Americas stated in October 1995:

Cubans who engage in "anti-social behavior" or violate "socialist
morality" may be held in preventive detention under the "dangerousness"
provisions of the criminal code for as long as four years, even without
being convicted of a crime.23
According to Pax Christi Netherlands and Amnesty International, there are
clear indications that the crime of "dangerousness" is used as a cover to
imprison people for political reasons on the grounds that they are common
delinquents.24

The Penal Code also defines the crime of salida illegal del país, "illegal
exit from country." Under Penal Code Articles 216 and 217, those caught
trying to leave the country without the permission of the government can be
fined or imprisoned for up to three years if they have not used violence and
up to eight years if force or intimidation is used. http://www.worldpolicy.org/globalrights/carib/1997-cuba.html#penal

Where people are forced by employers, CDR, school authorities, ... to
attend.

PL
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3 21st May 19:42
oz
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Posts: 1
Default What's the difference between Cuba and China, Dan?


Let's explain Mr. Schier verbal abuse on intelligence common sense and
truth

Mr. Schier has a need to belittle China and call it "Stalinist" because
China has recently made tremendous advances in economic growth while his
idol and monarch Fidel castor can only scream at his inability to get a free
ride from Cuban -Americans in the USA.


Since the rest of the world are looking at a direct comparison and wonder
the same question, why is China & Vietnam growing while Cuba keeps sinking
into heretofore unknown depths?. Communists like Schier with little respect
for the truth need to apply a totally fabricated rezoning to Castro's
failure
Cuba's leadership is SELF SERVING and not comunist Castro was always
honest about it he was NOT a Communist, Castro is a thug. John Gotti in
Olive Green Any country that at the drop of a hat puts a badly fed working
force to endure the rantings of a senile dictator for the benefit of
television cameras is at its best not a government but a cult of
personality.

The deeply communist resent China's changes , by Castro's admission they
have "betrayed" the spirit of communism. How? They have lost their
anti-American stance in favor of a Pro-Chinese doctrine. China wants to bury
the USA with prices and not with atomic Bombs. Castro can not do either so
he postures , threatens and faulters. How can a man with such ego be such a
failure at everything but being a dictator ? Last mesure in the Cuban
goverment of bringing back control of the tourist industry to his brother is
a typical ego controlled knee jerk reaction. . Raul Castro will improve the
tourist industry ? How? It is an industry createaded by Castrro under his
watch and thumb print . There were no linguering "Batistiabnos" to influnce
its growth or implementaion. How does it get away from him. ? It hasnt he
****ed up again and someone else needs to be blamed. Now he will give Raul
another 20 years to get it "right" . That my friend is Castro-Communism and
TYHAT is why it fails.

The funny thing is that Castro-Communism is in itself a total betrayal of
Marxism.
China's new social economy is a lot more akin to true Marxism that what
Mao's Stalin's Krushev's and Castro would like you to believe.

In a TRUE Marxist society private property is a MOST welcome thing.
Capitalism is seen as a valuable asset to the country. The country (NOT THE
GOVERNMENT- The PEOPLE not the "REVOLUTION") benefits by capitalism by
leasing land to private enterprises at very reasonable price the low
corporate taxes translate into a much higher standard of living to the
workers. This in turn drives a strong and florishing economy with very
little need for goveremnt sibsidies, where the people are in charge of their
destinies withour having to worry about supporting the albatross of a
REVOLUTION. The new China model was taken directly from the Hong Kong
structure.

To interject the China of 1989 (with their Tiananmen Sqr massacre) as
having any relevance in the socio-economic picture of China in 2004 is just
stupid. The Chinese government (although far from perfect) has changed
tremendously. Yes they still maintain a very tight reign in political
dissidence but the Chinese have now a level of freedom and economic growth
that Castro will NEVER achieve because he doesn't know how to do it and he
will not follow the logical proven path.
I suggest you search Google for the works of a brilliant Cuban economist Dr.
Luis Marcelo Yara and read how he asses TRUE Marxism against this
bastardized version Castro has imposed on 11 million people.


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4 21st May 19:42
gwhyte
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Default What's the difference between Cuba and China, Dan?


news:<S7rBc.410262$Ar.401121@twister01.bloor.is.ne t.cable.rogers.com>...


Thanks for replying. But Castro's statement begs the question "Was the USSR
socialist?" Castro seems to think so. Did it stop being Stalinist with the
rise of Mr K.?

And was all of Eastern Europe genuinely socialist? Was there no careerism in
Communist Party ranks there?

GW
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5 21st May 19:43
gwhyte
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Default What's the difference between Cuba and China, Dan?


CHECKMATE!!!!!
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6 23rd May 10:11
bschier
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Posts: 1
Default What's the difference between Cuba and China, Dan?


1. Key to whether a country is post-capitalist is whether the
basis of the economy is the profit system, rule of the ecomony and the
country by capitalists, e.g., those who by their private ownership of
the major means of production hire wage laborers who produce
commodities, etc., which are the source of wealth that enable the
capitalists to acquire further ownership of the major means of
production and thus hire more wage laborers who produce more
commodities, etc., which are the source of wealth that enable the
capitalists to acquire ... ad infinitum. In late 1917 (on either
October 25 or November 7 depending on whether the old Russian calendar
then used there or the Western calendar used elsewhere is used),
Russia (later to form an alliance with adjacent countries which had
their own revolutions and thus form the U.S.S.R.) had a socialist
revolution. The major means of production were nationalized; the fact
that workers had no control over the decision-making concerning the
enterprises over which they have/had ownership (with decisions made
instead by a highly privileged bureaucrats/technocrats) was/is one
characteristic of Stalinism. Former USSR Premier Nikita Khruschev
merely did away with one insidious aspect of Stalinism, "the cult of
personality," and (even though there was a very limited loosening of
the police state atmosphere) kept all the rest of the Stalinist
practices and apparatus basically intact.
The generalities about Stalinist in the former USSR apply to
Eastern Europe, North Korea, and Vietnam as well.
Not only "was all of Eastern Europe" NOT "genuinely socialist,"
but careerism was often synonymous with joining the Communist Party
there -- with the ambition of rising above the ranks. What
distinguishes the Cuban Communist Party from all the rest of the
organizations calling themselves by the name of "Communist Party" is
precisely that the raison d'etre of the Cuban Communist Party is to
advance revolution instead of advancing "detente" and the careers of
those who join it.

-- Barry Schier
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7 23rd May 10:13
gwhyte
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Default What's the difference between Cuba and China, Dan?


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news:<S7rBc.410262$Ar.401121@twister01.bloor.is.ne t.cable.rogers.com>...

Well, Castro found nothing wrong with the Stalinist regime in the USSR. His
criticism of what happened leading to the break-up of the USSR is entirely
different from what yours would be as a follower of Trotsky. Trotsky was a
major contributor to the revolution so he too was part of "Stalinism" even
before Stalin seized power.

Trotsky did not believe it was possible to build socialism in one country
and in any even according to the theory all this was supposed to only in the
advanced capitalist countries. So who is Castro fooling? How on earth is
worldwide socialist revolution going to be advanced in Cuba?

The role of leftists under capitalism is merely to prevent the possible
excesses. The advantage of capitalism is that it offers the 4 I's.

Information
Incentive
Investment
Innovation

Ultimately, that is what the Soviet and socialist systems didn't and can't
offer. And that is why capitalism is here to stay, comrade.

GW
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8 23rd May 10:13
dchris
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Default What's the difference between Cuba and China, Dan?


Cute.


Perhaps you can explain why all those shining models of capitalism in
Latin America lag so far behind socialist Cuba in areas that matter
most to people; namely, health and education. Something about a lack
of real democracy in these countries, perhaps? Where are your 4 I's
when you really need them?

Keep in mind that socialist Cuba was able to accomplish all this while
the subject of genocidal sanctions that even Amnesty International
must now concede are "used to harm the most vulnerable members of
society." Sanctions that even the UN Human Rights Commissions recently
had to concede have had "disastrous and lasting economic and social
effects." What do you think would happen to Mexico or Jamaica's health
and education systems under such a vicious attack? Would they be able
to send medical brigades to help their neighbours in times of need
like Cuba does?

See Featured Article, "What do Cubans stand to lose and who stands to
gain?" at my website.

Dan

Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
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9 23rd May 10:13
pedro martori
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Default What's the difference between Cuba and China, Dan?


Statistics on Cuba PRIOR to KaSStro*s dictatorship

CONTACTO Magazine - 10mo. Aniversario

Cubanos en Estados Unidos, Perfil de una Comunidad
Cuando el fallecido Roberto Goizueta fue nombrado presidente y director ejecutivo de la Coca-Cola en 1981, los cubanos radicados en Estados Unidos lo asumieron como un símbolo del éxito empresarial de su comunidad, en el país más poderoso del mundo. Con un poder adquisitivo extraordinario y el más alto nivel de educación entre los hispanos, los cubanos conforman uno de los más sólidos sectores de la comunidad de emigrantes en este país.

Statisques sur la Cuba d*avant kaSStro.

Statistics on Cuba PRIOR to KaSStro*s dictatorship.

Cifras de la Cuba Pre-revolucionaria
http://www.contactomagazine.com/cubacifras.htm


Cubanos en Estados Unidos, Perfil de una Comunidad
http://www.contactomagazine.com/cubanoseneu.htm

Artículos Relacionados con Cuba y los Cubanos:

Cuba, 45 Años de Revolución y Exilio (1959 - 2004)
http://www.contactomagazine.com/cuba5999.htm

Breve Historia de la Musica Cubana
http://www.contactomagazine.com/delavega2.htm

La Música Bailable Cubana
http://www.contactomagazine.com/bailable100.htm

Carlos J. Finlay Salvó Millones de Vidas
http://www.contactomagazine.com/finlay.htm

Virgen de la Caridad del Cobre, Patrona de Cuba
http://www.contactomagazine.com/caridad911.htm

Zoe Valdes, la Literatura es Misterio y Libertad
http://www.contactomagazine.com/zoe100.htm

Cifras de la Cuba Pre-revolucionaria
http://www.contactomagazine.com/cubacifras.htm

Muchas gracias a la comunidad cubana por el extraordinario apoyo que ha dado a CONTACTO Magazine en sus 10 años de vida. Mañana 1 de julio, CONTACTO celebra su décimo aniversario.

Atentamente,

Jesús Hernández Cuéllar, Director y Editor
Xiomara Hernández, Directora Asociada
Aleida Durán, Editora Asociada

CONTACTO Magazine
Una Revista para el Latino de Hoy

---
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10 23rd May 10:13
charles_liu
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Default What's the difference between Cuba and China, Dan?


Can I offer up one more 'I'? Imperialism. A difference between China
and Cuba in this respect is China isn't been coveted by a big powerful
neighbor with long standing "ripe fruit" policy dating back to John Quency Adams.
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