~ jan

In another thread someone asked, "Does the change in temp require a change
in food." I knew I had read something recently and apparently I mentioned
it to our local Newsletter Editor.

So without further ado: http://www.midcolumbiakoi.com presents it's newsletter
on-line. Click on Info, then click on Sept. Newsletter. Page 8 is the


------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: http://www.jjspond.us

just remember that Chris Neaves makes and sells fish food.

Uhhhh.... all foods eaten need to be broken down UNLESS they are predigested. He
says "The digestion of protein begins in the stomach using the enzyme pepsin."
However, koi dont have stomachs, I dont know if koi produce pepsin in their mouths.

Koi need and digest two things... protein and lipids (oil). They dont digest
carbohydrates almost at all unless it has been highly processed and barely can
utilize sugar. But bacteria sure can work on those carbs (producing.. wowowo..
gas!!)

Koi eat itty bitty critters that live off the bacteria that grow on algae. Koi
sc**** the algae off to get the critters rich in protein and lipids so they do eat
some of the green stuff grows in water. Plants that are land based have a great deal
of cellulose that cant be digested.

At low temps feed fish what they are finding in the ponds ... itty bitty critters
like daphnia and even krill. and if they arent interested in the food, dont feed at
all. mine wont eat below 50o and I wont foul the water with food then either. Ingrid

reel mckoi

==================
Not everyone can afford to feed a school of koi something like krill or
daphnia, more costly than fresh shrimp or prime rib. That's fine if you
only have a few koi but some of us have many fish in our ponds. It would
cost me hundreds of dollars a month. My koi are thriving on a mix of dry
cat food, trout and catfish chow with treats of worms and canned mackerel.
They also get an occasional piece of orange, whole wheat bread which they
love and some duckweed when it'll grow.

I know some will strongly disagree with what I feed my koi and goldfish but
they not only thrive but we're again inundated with healthy new fry.
--

RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö>

kurt

Wheat Germ formula for Winter.

--
To reply by email, remove the word "space"

~ jan

You type that like it is some sinister thing? CN has done a lot of things
in his lifetime. He's not just some backyard koi person that decided to
develop a koi food one day. Which he no longer does, btw, stopped in 2001,
and he doesn't mention the food in the article.

Koi related, he's researched and written 3 books on Koi health, nutrition
and filtration. Seems only natural a company might ask for his help on
developing and marketing a koi product. He also puts a lot of volunteer
time into the KHA program. I see no reason to poo poo his article just
because it may not agree with your teachings, or because he at one time
developed and marketed a koi product.


I think you're misreading that, koi are not mentioned in that paragraph
from which the quote was taken. The statement above is misleading the
reader to believe that Chris Neaves said koi have stomachs, damaging his
credibility. I read that paragraph as an "in general this happens during
digestion (any digestion)" nothing to do with koi digestion per se.

That seems to be in agreement with the article. It mentions that Wheat Germ
foods are not pure, contain proteins and therefore one really doesn't have
to go shopping around for this "special food".

"Is wheat germ actually more easily digestible than animal protein?
The answer seems to be no. Plant protein is bound up in the cells—
tough cellulose cells. Wheat germ has a fiber level of around 3 to 6%,
which is quite high. However, the digestibility is improved by the cooking
process during extrusion. But there again so is the animal protein
digestibility enhanced in the cooking process."

I interpreted the article as saying: Feed a good quality koi food, reduce
as temperatures get cooler, stop at 50F. Wheat Germ is fine, but not
necessary. Or am I reading it incorrectly? ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: http://www.jjspond.us

~ jan

That's great. Koi will thrive on alternative feeds, the problem lies in
longevity & water quality can suffer. Just like humans thrive on Big Macs &
fries, and it comes back to haunt them later. :-)

Better, imho, would be to reduce stock so you can feed them the recommended
koi feeds.

I saw a pond on a pond tour with very yellowish water, discovered they were
feeding dog food. Koi colors were also very dull.

I know your ponds are well planted, water quality clear, and koi bright
from pictures you have posted. I'm quite sure your koi are getting a lot of
natural foods just from the pond itself. The problem with telling others
you feed non-koi foods is they may not have a similar set-up that
alleviates the ills of feeding non-koi foods. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: http://www.jjspond.us

~ jan

But it isn't necessary, according to the article. :-) ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: http://www.jjspond.us

BULK freeze dried Krill 1.1 LBS) SPECIAL $25.00
Krill is maybe something like 90% water, so
they also offer Frozen Krill(~6.6 LBS.) SALE $30.00 is about 4.54 per pound

Empire fish (freshest and best in Milwaukee)... frozen shrimp, 6.40 per pounds
sirloin steak is 2.98 on special

Omega 1 GF food pellets 2.75 lb ~ $26.99 = 9.80 per lb

what is the cost of your food? and if that food is 70% filler or cant be digested,
what is the cost per lb?

I went thru this with our dog food and ended up that if we keep the price $1 per lb
we can beat the price of reasonably good, commercial dry dog food. Feeding a natural
diet of raw meaty bone has obvious health benefits, if nothing else, my dogs dont
need dentals once a year.

I have 23 koi. they get 1 cup of the dry krill per day. This spring before my
veggie filter got up and running the water cleared immediately when I switched to
krill and quit feeding dry pellet food.

We do spend a lot on good food and vet care and facilities for our pets/zoo. If/when
we cannot, we will find homes that can. Ingrid

reel mckoi

You're quoting prices that shock me as you can't find fresh shrimp here for
under $10.00 lb. The cheapest cuts of beef are more than $2.98 lb. nowadays.

I guess my fish are digesting it just fine since their colors are deep and
vivid, they're not obese, the water is crystal clear and they reproduce all
out of proportion to what the ponds can carry, necessitating draining them
down every spring to remove the fry. The 50lb bag of trout chow and bag of
catfish chow was $12 I think. $10 when it's on sale.


It sounds like a more natural diet that the dry food most people feed them.
In the wild wolves eat everything from the internal organs to the muscle and
marrow ends of the bones. Supplying such foods can be expensive if the dog
is large or you have many dogs.


Good idea. I'm sure you did find them good homes where they are happy and
well cared for.


--

RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö>

1. It isnt sinister, it just doesnt give him any credibility. His plagiarism when
his articles first appeared didnt help at all either. And yes, that IS still
relevant and will be forever. It is his history. Plagiarism might not mean anything
to most people, but to trained scientists it is an abomination, it is grand theft
hard earned work.

The question is.. who IS Chris Neaves? What is his scientific background? What does
he do for a living? We have been down this road before with Koivorkian, a vet who
didnt have any specific background in fish when he started but hopefully, after
killing all his fish (once, twice?) has maybe learned something, but who, after all,
is in it for the money.

OTOH, people like Brett who makes a living breeding koi have the experience in
addition to the schooling and are very believable because he isnt online hawking
anything.

Compare Neaves with Noga, who puts together and properly cites and credits real
scientific information. There are tons of those "little big books" out there at pet
stores that are nothing but a brainless rehashing of long discredited methods by
other hacks parading as experts. Why is it that we still talk about "goldfish bowls"
and they are still selling people a dozen little goldfish and a 10 gallon tank?

The "idiot books" have been replaced by a plethora of online idiot hacks who take
bits and pieces of other peoples information, copy the information out of the "idiot
books" without regard for whether the information has any value what so ever and mish
mash it up on their website. A lot of it is "chum" to drag people to their websites
where ads are placed, every hit on a site = money from the ads.

Do a search for "dropsy" and you will find nearly everyone saying it is hopeless,
there is no treatment. Or, they give the most atrocious advice, like running the
salt up.

2. SO??? All this proves is he has the time to sit down and type. Writing something
doesnt mean it has any value at all. It isnt like scientists or a scientific book
company came to him and asked him to pull together current thinking in koi health,
nutrition and filtration. Printing it doesnt make it so, any idiot can get a book
published, smart idiots get other people to print it for them or they would have to
print it themselves (vanity press).

3. I most certainly am not misreading it. He is introducing the idea by way of an
****ogy. Now this could be crappy writing or not. BUT WHY MENTION IT AT ALL??
If I was writing the article I would say "Unlike most animals where digestion starts
in the mouth with the addition of pepsin and continues in the stomach with HCl, Koi,
WHICH HAVE NO STOMACH OR PEPSIN, only digest foods in the intestines by ....... .

His writing is typical of my freshman. Just toss in enough unrelated bullshit and see
if any of it sticks .. or impresses. That sentence is at the irrelevant and at worst
misleading. So you, me and how many others KNOW that koi dont have stomachs??

4. I am not only concerned with where a writer ends up, but with how he gets there.
Spot on with this issue, off by a mile on others if the journey is flawed.

Ingrid


1. >You type that like it is some sinister thing?
2>Koi related, he's researched and written 3 books on Koi health, nutrition


3. >I think you're misreading that, koi are not mentioned in that paragraph

4. >"Is wheat germ actually more easily digestible than animal protein?