Se7en 2011-06-09 22:34:58
I won’t be the first in this news group to express their disappointment with
‘Train Of Thought’. Someone went so far as to write “Dream Theater is now
Metallica”. I couldn’t have said it better myself. This album is HORRIBLE !
I thought Dream Theater was a progressive Metal band. There’s nothing
Progressive with this album. The time signatures are no different than what
you would find on a ‘Stained’ album. Track two (about two minuets in) is a
complete rip-off of Metallicas ‘Blackened’.
I know that bands like to evolve but there’s got to be a point where you
evolve to the point of being a completely different band. I happen to think
that we need another “Images and Words” or “Awake”. It seems that ever since
they got involved with ‘concept albums’ the musical aspect of what we know
and love Dream Theater to be has been lost. I know that there are people who
would argue that they needn’t reinvent the wheel. But Dream Theater is Dream
Theater. We fell in love with them because of their abilities to write
‘Innocence Faded’, Scarred, etc. John hasn’t constructed a guitar solo like
in those two songs, since those two songs…..
God…………..what a let down……………..
Ibanezjem28 2011-06-09 22:35:02
The time signatures are no different than what
Not true…There are many diiferent meters being used through the
enitire album. This album is very complex,,,,Plus, they were going to
write a metal album from the begining…
“We fell in love with them because of their abilities to write
‘Innocence Faded’, Scarred, etc. John hasn’t constructed a guitar solo
like in those two songs, since those two songs…..”
I fell in love with them because of The Ytse Jam, Status Seeker,
Learning To Live and Metropolis…John has had many great solos since
those albums….COS solo at the end, Hells Kitchen, Trail Of Tears, it
goes on and on….
I am le tired 2011-06-09 22:35:04
Nobody in their right mind thinks DT is about songs like “Innocence
Faded”. This was a lame tune probably put in there by whoever was the
producer-of-the-day at that time in order to get some air time on
Canadian Rush-nostalgic radio stations for lonely truckers. Songs aren’t
about containing “the best guitar solo” either – besides, this is so
ToT rocks – learn to appreciate the band’s evolution.
Se7en 2011-06-09 22:35:07
………look, face it. THE ALBUM PLAIN SUCKS!!!!!!! They evolved to the
point where they should change their name. And your an a** for picking up on
ONE song that I used to express a BIGGER point. OK, forget about ‘Innocence
Faded’, how about Metropolis pt 1? Is that easier for someone of your
apparent intellect to understand? Notice that you avoided my truthful
observation on the apparent rip-off of Metallicas ‘Blackened’ on their
second track. Oopps, I guess you don’t want to deal with that yet. It hurts
you too much. But, rip my post apart. The truth hurts too much for you to do
anything else but…..I expect this kind of SHALLOW response in this news
ToT SUCKS – Learn to accept the truth
Ibanezjem28 2011-06-09 22:35:13
That is subjective…not the truth for me I love it…BTW, I stated
Metropolis in my first post…As for the Metallica thing…listen
closely…They overlapped Metallica with Dave Mustaine vocals under
it,in essence what they feel may have come if Dave never left the
band…It is done on purpose and it is only for a short segment. If
you don’t like it fine, we heard your point. I don’t have to agree,
and I don’t. This is a great metal album and very progressive. Learn to live with that!
Atrox 2011-06-09 22:35:16
H*** has frozen over. You and I agree on something. Se7en’s opinion *is*
completely subjective, since there is no way to objectively measure
“suckiness.” The valid point that he raises, however, is the fact that DT
seems to “borrow” very closely from the bands that influence them. This has
been something that people have pointed out for a long time. Some people
think they plagiarize because the song writing talent left the band with
Kevin Moore. Other people think that they are “paying tribute.” Some people
honestly don’t seem to hear the similarities.
To my ears, it seems that DT is borrowing quite a bit on ToT, as well as
recycling riffs from earlier albums. I think in some ways this detracts from
the album’s originality. But I do think they synthesize these riffs and
borrowed materials in interesting ways, which is why overall, I like this
album better than 6DoIT.
Djrjr 2011-06-09 22:35:18
All I know is when DT puts out a new cd it can take me months, sometimes
years to learn the drum parts(some I never will be able to play). Not the
case with this cd! I have to agree with Se7en. It’s just missing the DT
magic imo. Usually anything these guys do is badass. They didn’t switch
instruments again did they? Whats up with the vocals. Sounds like s*** or
when MP trys to sing a part.
Atrox 2011-06-09 22:35:20
It would have taken months to learn these drum parts as well if you hadn’t
already learned the other DT drum parts. The drumming on ToT displays all
the same complexity, its just that MP doesn’t do anything he hasn’t done
before. I agree that this album is much more straightforward than the
previous two, but it seems that that’s the CD they wanted to make. I don’t
think its a masterpiece by any stretch, but I’ll take a straightforward and
slightly unoriginal album of rocking tunes (like ToT) over a pretentious,
self-indulgent double album (like SDoIT) any day.
Ibanezjem28 2011-06-09 22:35:24
Kevin Moore was a key part to the overall chemistry of the band. His
approach was more musical than Jordan..Jordan has the chops…Equal
trade off? I think not because we would both probably agree that the
composition comes first. KM was the complete package. KM brought the
writing ability, the lush keyboard tones, and even though not quite as
chopped out as Jordan, he was well equipped for the gig…The magic
formula or the trademark of Dream Theater has always been the ability
to be musically outrageous and still maintain the creation of a
powerful song (i.e Metropolis Pt.1) Funny enough my favorite DT song
is still Learning To Live and was written by Myung,
I don’t remember if you were the one to say it, as much as I love DT,
it seems to becoming more and more like a Petrucci/Portnoy project.
Myung hasn’t had a song on the last 2 albums.
it seems that DT is borrowing quite a bit on ToT, as well as
I though this at first when I heard a bit of Tool in “Home” and then
“The Great Debate” and was bothered by it. Then I was okay with it
because it was only in short segements and seemed to flow nicely. The
only obvious ref. on TOT, without a doubt, is the “Blackend”
section…There are some other riffs that resemble the likes
of:Pantera, Megadeth, Tool and other metal bands. However, I think
they are different enough that I can enjoy it. I’m not sure if your a
musician or not, but if you are, you know as well as I do we all write
from influence . Sometimes you write a riff and don’t even realize
it’s very similar to another band. I think there is a mixture of some
actual, intentional references as well as the theory I just expalined.
Tie that in with the references back to the Glass Prison (whcih I
happen to like how they did that….and the end, ouch!).
I can see why this may turn some people off. For me there is enough
fresh melody(especailly in the vox) and riffage to really get into
this album. H*** must have froze over because I also think this is
better album than SDOIT.
Erik muna aka 2011-06-09 22:35:26
Good points, at least you stated your reasons unlike some people around
After a week I’ve decided I love this album. I’m taking it for what it
is… a “classic” metal album which is what DT set out to do in the first
place and I think they succeeded in spades. I love the riffs and the
atmosphere and SoC is just a sweet song. I can appreciate DT for being DT
with each album, regardless of what people think they *should* have done,
because it’s them and it’s what they want to make. If I have a friend dye
her hair green to I hate her for it even though I don’t like it? No, that’s
arrogant and disrespectful and that’s how I think of DT… like friends, and
I am just thankful that they are still around making great music but maybe
it’s all IMHO.
PS – I wish people would stop stating their opinion as if it were fact. I
fell in love with DT cuz of other songs than the ones you mentioned and I
emotion. I could go on but I won’t. I’m sorry you don’t like the album
with such passion but I hope you don’t turn your back on DT forever.
Erik Muna aka PetFish
Freelance Web Design & Graphic Arts
www.petfishonline.com … my online portfolio
www.dt-x.com … my Dream Theater media site
Erik muna aka 2011-06-09 22:35:28
I love Innocence Faded… one of the best outro’s ever and James sings
uber-high in it, so does that mean I’m not in my right mind? Doubt it.
This is all opinion and not fact so please don’t state things as if they
were. ToT does rock, massive riffage all around, different from the “norm”
but great nonetheless IMHO.
Erik muna aka 2011-06-09 22:35:29
This is all in your opinion so why are you looking to get people
aggravated by stating it as fact? Why can’t we like ToT as much as you seem
to hate it? I’ll never understand why people complain so much but, on the
bright side, it is fact that for every whiner there are dozens of people who
appreciate the very thing they’re whining about.
Blaedmon 2011-06-09 22:35:32
you’re kind of a d*******, arent you? Sorry about that, its just people like
you are just.. (sorry).. DICKHEADS.
Duley 2011-06-09 22:35:36
I find these two posts quite ironic indeed. You get mad at anyone who
has an opinion that isn’t glowing about TOT (take Atrox as an
example), and say that people shouldn’t be trash talking the band or
its music. Then you guys attack Innocence Faded, and say that the guy
who does like that song is out of his right mind.
How is that any different from me saying that anyone who likes ToT is
out of their right mind? (I’m not say that, I’m just questioning how
it is any different than what you are saying, and agreeing to?)
Personally, I think all opinions are welcome here, whether positive or
negative. My point is that I don’t think you can play both sides of
the fence. If you have the right to criticize a song, why don’t the
rest of us?
Oh, and just so you know where I stand, I find ToT to be boring,
uninspired, self indulgent, wankering, that leads to a headache after
listening to 3 or 4 songs. But hey that’s just me. SFaM was their last
great album in my opinion.
You may not agree with my opinion, but based on how you freely
expressed your opinion about Innocence Faded, I’m sure you agree that
I have the right to voice my opinion as well.
Duley 2011-06-09 22:35:38
Just curious about the following?
Is a whiner someone who doesn’t adore everything the band does? Or
just anyone who doesn’t agree with your opinion?
Duley 2011-06-09 22:35:41
OK, good point. You can forget my last post. I see now that you don’t
have a problem with people stating opinions, so long as they do it
I respect that, and agree.
Duley 2011-06-09 22:35:43
So, in summary, anyone who has their own opinion of something, that
differs from your opinion of that thing, is a d*******.
Apparently, there are a lot of dickheads in the world. Duley
Gradus van gel 2011-06-09 22:35:44
And they did it again…
Dream Theater again surprises me with the new CD Train Of Thought. Again…a
great ‘heavy’ sounding CD. And again (as all the other Dr.Th. CD’s) after a
week listening to it, it’s getting better and better. No…it’s not sounding
like I&W/Awake etc., etc. and there is no KM/DS playing keyboard on the
You never know in what direction the music is going, on the next new CD.
But…it’s always ‘sounding’ like Dream Theater. And that’s what I like
about Dream Theater.
Like every Dr.Th. fan, I have my own favourite Dr.Th. CD’s/songs/solo’s etc.
And of course there are also a few songs/musicparts that I don’t like.
On every new Dr.Th.CD I want a lot of warm sounding JLB ‘voices’, heavy
sounding odd signature guitar-rhythm’s/melodic JP solo’s, great MP and JM
odd signature drum/bass grooves and JR time-phrasing keyboardparts. And most
of the CD-time they answer to my expectations. That’s Dream Theater…
I am listening to Dr.Th. since1993. I have seen/hear about eight
live-concerts of them. And every time it was brilliant. I am looking
forward to see/hear them again, in the Netherlands jan. 2004. Their music is
complex… but outstanding.
For me… Dream Theater is unique of its kind.
I am just a ordinary progressive rock guitarist from the Netherlands who
also likes other great ‘bands/guitarist’ like Symphony X, Steve Vai, Joe
Satriani, TOTO, Threshold, Vanden Plas…and a lot more.
But…ha, ha, there is only ONE Dream Theater.
Hopefully they will bring out a new Dr.Th. DVD soon….The first one was/is
And by the way…’positiv critism’ in this newsgroup is allright but I am
tired of the ‘negativ destructive writing’ in this dreamtheaternewsgroup. If
you don’t like the (new) music of Dream Theater… look for another band and
DO NOT annoying us…
friendly greetings from the Netherlands,
I am le tired 2011-06-09 22:35:49
It’s no different. Except Innocence Faded really sucks.
So you do have a crystal ball then?
I am le tired 2011-06-09 22:35:51
Since when is art about facts? You do agree that music is an art, right?
Of course it’s all about opinions, it’s always been and always will.
There’s no empirical formula that dictates how to write the perfect
song, and you can’t mathematically demonstrate this riff is superior to
that one. Heck, Nirvana’s SLTS probably sold 50,000 times more albums
than DT ever will, and most of their songs revolve around 3 or 4 chords.
Duley 2011-06-09 22:35:53
Point taken 🙂
Indeed, I hope that there will be many great DT albums in the future,
and that their greatest work is yet ahead of them. Hopefully, SDoIT
and ToT were simply side roads upon their musical progression.
Myfaveheadache 2011-06-09 22:35:55
Images and Words, SFAM, and 6 Degrees are the top of the top for this band. TOT
Look if she is not into The Unknown Comic, she is not worth dating.
Sierrasun3 2011-06-09 22:35:58
I love that song.
Lrn2swim 2011-06-09 22:36:00
Innocence Faded RULZ so f*** off.
Se7en 2011-06-09 22:36:03
……thank you! ‘Innocence Faded’ is a GREAT song. I don’t understand how
ANY Dream Theater fan could say that song sucks. I’m in love with the guitar
solo. It’s just put together sooooo well.
Thanks for the support guys, I’m glad to see that some of you can read an
open opinion and take it for what it’s worth. This guy Duley is way off
base……..I think people like him get-off trying to sound like their
opinion is fact.
John m. 2011-06-09 22:36:06
I don’t think I’d consider ToT ‘filler’ but I agree with the three albums
Duley 2011-06-09 22:36:13
Ummm, I think if you reread the thread, you’ll see that that “Duley
guy” actually was supporting your position.
“I am le tired” is the guy who said that ‘Innocence Faded’ sucks. If
you read what I wrote, you’ll see that I said no such thing. Duley
The silent man 2011-06-09 22:36:38
You brought up some excellent points, Erik. I’ve been listening to the
album minimally, as I had previously only acquired the MP3s (and for
some reason the MP3 I had for “Honor Thy Father” was incomplete…), but
I picked the CD up earlier tonight, and for some reason am loving it all
the more as I listen to the actual CD.
This is a radical departure for Dream Theater, stylistically. The
rapid-fire “rapping” James does in “This Dying Soul” is kinda unique; I
liken it to what Geddy Lee keeps referring to as his “spoken word
segment” in the Rush song “Roll The Bones” (yes, that WAS Geddy!).
It’s, again, quite different for DT.
The album is chunkier, and that isn’t a bad thing. There are still the
trademark DT elements of variant time signatures, complex song
structure, etc., but it isn’t as melodic an album, at least not in the
same way that their previous releases were. Jordan seems to be a lot
more in the background in this release, but that doesn’t have to be a
bad thing, as he certainly took front and center with “Scenes From A
Memory” and “Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence”. More to the point, John
Myung seems to be a lot more “there” in the songs, if only because the
bass is so high in the mix. That’s good; I still can’t really think of
any of his work which really stands out in the songs other than that
rapid-fire bass thing in “Metropolis Part I” from “Images & Words”, and
a couple of other trills on subsequent albums.
I’m hoping DT come to the Seattle area, where I live, for the new tour.
It seems like any one of the songs from this album would be true tests
of their endurance; I’m listening to “This Dying Soul” as I type this,
and that song is just MASSIVE in terms of the physical effort just about
all the musicians have to put into it.
The Silent Man
I am le tried 2011-06-09 22:36:44
Your eloquence is awe-inspiring.
Blaedmon 2011-06-09 22:36:58
high-horse, anyone? No, I’d prefer you didnt put ill conceived assumptions
agree has a ‘metallica’ sound to it IN ONE SONG) is quite plainly
narrow-minded. We’re all music enthusiasts who have heard many MANY songs
and we can easily identify a band simply by hearing their ‘sound’, their
‘feel’. So saying DT has become Metallica or somewhat just because one of
their songs crosses an imaginary ‘boundary’ reserved ONLY for Metallica
(which of course they have NO RIGHT TO DO *extreme sarcasm*) is, to me,
just admitting you’re not really a music fan at all – you’re just an
obtuse-minded d******* who’d pigeon-holes bands and their unique sound.
And for they original guys statement TOT is horrible? Jesus, man, take your
d*** outta your ears – its a great CD. In my opinion they didnt do enough
songs, but hey I’m not complaining at all – what they’ve done I really
liked. I’ll admit they’ve changed slightly again in sound – Oh My God HOW
CAN THEY DO THIS?!?! HOW DARE THEY! THEY’RE SELLOUTS! Grow a f****** brain
you… you d*******!
ps. Btw for those helpless dickheads out there the above in caps is
sarcasm… you f****** d*******.
Atrox 2011-06-09 22:37:06
Not until you get off yours.
No, I’d say the epitome narrow mindedness is calling someone who disagrees
with you or thinks the new album is horrible a d*******. If you read the
original post carefully, you’ll see that he doesn’t say that the Metallica
influence is pervasive throughout the disc. Rather, he uses the comment to
indicate that, in his opinion, the record is unoriginal and retreads ground
that others have already trodden. You of course, can disagree. But the tone
of your disagreement demonstrates that you’re nothing but a drooling fanboy
t*** with no intelligent or reasoned comments at all. You state your
opinions as fact, your whole argument is a non sequitur, and your
charaterization of people who are criticizing the album rests on s*****
strawman logic. Bump up your reading comprehension skills, learn a little
about how to structure a written arguement, and try again.
Better to have your d*** in your ears than to go through life as a dickless
Blaedmon 2011-06-09 22:37:18
my d*** is bigger than yours. I win. end of argument.
Bc 2011-06-13 22:53:32
I was a bit overwhelmed during my first few listens of ToT, it’s so
relentless! After a week of listening, I’m really digging it. Some of
the instrumental sections still feel a bit forced.
With the more consistent/concise structure of many of the songs, they
feel like they should end – but then go on extended jam. Which is
totally cool, but it doesn’t flow smoothly, IMO.
I’m sure after another week of spins it will all sound natural.
Atrox 2011-06-13 22:53:34
Sorry. You’re measuring in centimeters. 10 is not bigger than 9 1/2. And
besides, mine gets hard.
Blaedmon 2011-06-13 22:54:07
eh? you still arguing? didnt I say end of argument? you lose. I win. Simple
concept, no? Btw, when alluding to d*** size, dont glance sideways at your
boyfriend. Thats just plain silly.
Se7en 2011-06-13 22:54:17
…….your confused, you don’t HAVE the biggest d***. You ARE the biggest
d***! That’s the end of the argument.
Atrox 2011-06-13 22:54:36
Ibanezjem28 2011-06-13 22:54:39
This is the s*** I’m talking about. I agree with Blaedmon’s opinion
regrading TOT, however, is there really a need to go assuming one’s
d*** is bigger than the other? Atrox simply gave a response to
Blaedmon. His response was far from vulgar and was very well written.
Atrox and I are far from being pals, but I must say I have to support
him because DT, TOT, have nothing to do with someones d***…..and
quite frankly Blaedmon, no one gives a f*** how big or small your d***
is. Studies also show that people who go around stating they have a
large p**** may in fact be undersized.
Bottom line, everyone has a viewpoint regarding DT and this album. My
question is why it always must come to personal attacks when someone
doesn’t agree with something that is said? Furthermore, there is no
room for this dialog….and Atrox did make a legit point. I don’t
agree with it, but it was backed up nicely and included some low key
sarcasm, but not uneducated jargon,,,, You, Blaedmon, called se7en a
d******* because he doesn’t like TOT. Why? He’s entitled to not like
it. I love the new album, agree with you that it kicks a**, and
disagree with se7en…however, his comments wern’t filled with cursing
and vulgar language…I think this is the behavior that many of us are
getting quite sick of…Why can’t we all get along regradless of how
we view a topic?
Atrox 2011-06-13 22:54:43
Also nicely stated
Blaedmon 2011-06-13 22:55:12
Gee, you dont think I could have POSSIBLY been a little sarcastic? C’mon
guys and gals – we all know theres always going to be some fools out there
reading someone elses opinion, the predictable reponses, and then the
plethora of idiots responding again stupidly – not realising for a moment
they’re sounding like children with little to no imagination nor detecting
the concept of sarcasm.
Lets all grow up, ok?
P.s. My d*** is, actually, immense in size. Sometimes NASA and the FBI call
me up and ask I move it a little to the right or the left to aid pre-set
space shuttle paths and trajectories.
Now lets see how many dickheads take this seriously and try and be clever.
Marc88 2011-06-13 22:55:37
An objectivist metalhead???
Marco van dijk 2011-06-13 22:56:41
an ordinary prog guitarplayer from holland? i didn’t know we had much of
that kind in holland 😉 most of the guitar players i know only play punk
and stuff :-S
“Gradus van Gelder”