d hamilton

My most recent bloodwork shows:

My T 347 (241-827)
Free T 5.69 (5.0 - 21.0)
% Free T 1.64 (1.0 - 2.7)
Prolactin 22.2 (2.1 - 17.7)

The Prolactin is a little high but the doc isn't worried about it. My
libido is still low and I have some ED.

The doc says that it is fact that T levels of 100 are enough to
provide adequate erections. I don't know -- I am under a lot of
stress. I've given up caffeine.

I'm taking 1 mg of Dostinex twice a week.

Back in January I felt a lot better. I can remember dancing with my
wife at a New Year's Eve party and getting an erection. That had not
happened in years. Sometime after that I was driving up the road and
noticed a woman walking up her driveway -- she was a cutie and I had
some stirrings ... again, very uncommon.

Lately -- for the past several months -- I don't feel anything. My
bloodwork is better than it was then, so maybe I've got some
psycholigical stuff going on.

Anyway, to tackle the task at hand. I'm sticking with 1 mg Dostinex
twice a week. We may continue to see some improvement at this level;
maybe not.

I'll do the Google Groups research tonight when I get home. I'm
posting this as much to blow off steam as anything else. If someone
has the inclination to reply to the following I'd appreciate it.

Questions:
1. Zinc -- how does it work? There was a period of several weeks when
I noticed that I was having periods of better days and periods of
not-as-good days -- physically speaking. After a few ups and downs I
noticed that the period of good days always seemed to come when I was
taking Zinc as suggested. I've lost my copy of Shippen, but it seems
I read here that Zinc interferes with the enzyme Aromatase's
conversion of T to E.
My wife and I have recently separated. Prior to that there was
a period where I didn't feel that I needed what Zinc seemed to be
doing for me ... so I've been off it for a while. I've started taking
it again -- will it do anything to boost my T?

2. Prolactin -- aside from taking more meds, is there anything I can
do to lower it naturally?

3. Dostinex -- how much can a person safely take? Is anybody taking
more that 1 mg. twice a week? Does it seem to help that much more?

4. Obesity -- I weigh just over 310 pounds. I've dropped almost 60
pounds since I've started Dostinex. I know obesity has something to do
with the amount of Aromatase activity a person has going on in his
body. Can I expect my T levels to increase as I slim down. I have
about 70 pounds to go.

Finally -- maybe I'm totally fine now and have nothing to bitch about;
maybe I should quit second-guessing my doc. My state of mind is
generally better. I'm more relaxed as a rule. I've lost weight.
Perhaps without the stress of the separation I'd be A-number-1 OK.
Still ... I feel like I'm close ... but no cigar.

As always, thanks for being there.

d hamilton

The answers to my questions. (Many of you already knew this, but for
some it may be news.)


From http://www.andropausecanada.com/when.php

Obesity

Studies indicate that obesity is directly related to
over-estrogenization in both ***es. All fat cells contain aromatase,
so an increase in fat cell population will cause an increase in the
conversion of testosterone into estrogen. This will alter the
testosterone:estrogen ratios. Obesity is also known to lower
testosterone levels at all ages. This may be an excellent reason to
trim down and tone up!

Zinc Deficiency

Zinc inhibits the levels of aromatase in the body. If zinc levels are
inadequate, the levels of aromatase rise. Zinc is also necessary for
normal pituitary functions. Without zinc, the pituitary gland cannot
release the luteinizing and follicle stimulating hormones that
stimulate the testes to produce testosterone. An interesting note;
while zinc is necessary for testosterone production, testosterone is
necessary to maintain levels of zinc in body tissues.
[This doesn't really say more zinc is better, just that not enough
zinc is bad]

From pfizer.com: The recommended dosage of DOSTINEX Tablets for
initiation of therapy is 0.25 mg twice a week. Dosage may be increased
by 0.25 mg twice weekly up to a dosage of 1 mg twice a week according
to the patient's serum prolactin level.
[So I've topped out]

http://qualitycounts.com/fpprolactin.html suggests that the following
items will lower prolactin: Pygeum, Zinc, and Saint John's Wort among
others. I need to do some more reading to determine whether this is BS
or fact. There are links from the site to buy said products.

If anyone has had success with some of the prolactin-lowering
alternatives, please speak up.

Thanks again,

rich

Hello HD,

1) Zn helps T production and reduces aromatization of it... why not take
50-100 mg Zn per day, every day?
2) Prolactin... nothing that I know of, other than Bromocryptine.... but
Bromocryptine of course not considered "natural".
3) Dostinex... I don't know the safety limits of it... but it's always safer
to take the recommended dose... while you're on Dostimex, is your doc
monitoring your PRL?
4) Obesity is a significant factor... body fat encourages estrogen... is
your doc monitoring your E2?... slimming down should help your T.
5) Based on your bloodwork, if you have a really good doc, while monitoring
your T and E2, he'll take your T to 1,000 and maintain it there for 4
months, and see how you feel after 4 months at 1,000, but then again, good
docs are hard to find... and as LEF says, despite of mounting evidence,
"today's physicians practice medicine as if low T has no impact on an aging
man's health."

I hope this helps.

Rich

In article <rmroov8f3f9s4k9v1ts2ktl85n21ghp4tg@4ax.com>, slabc9
@notvalid.hotmail.com says...


I don't know where he got that number from. Maybe the absolute limit
for erection is that low, but for normal male ***ual functioning,
including libido, a testosterone level of at least 300 ng/dl is


Ask him if he can provide references for his numbers - and then point
out that simple ability to achieve an erection is NOT the same as the
ability to maintain an erection and function normally.

The reference for the 300 ng/dl requirement for normal functioning:

Nieschlag, E. (1978). The Endocrine Function Of The Human Testis In
Regard To ***uality. Ciba Foundation Symposium, 62, 182-208. (From
British Journal of Medicine, 2000, 320, 858-851, by D. C. Gould, R.
Petty, & H. S. Jacobs)

I believe that publication is available on-line at the British Journal
of Medicine web site.

wanderer

I'm no doctor but...

I think your Free T is very low ‹ possibly a more significant factor for
libido and erections than total T.

My Free T was also diagnosed as very low, and my libido was nil. I sought out
a cooperative doctor who was a believer in TRT, and began with HCG therapy.
My libido and performance improved dramatically and almost immediately. When
the effects of the HCG declined, I switched to self-administered T-cypionate
injections, once a week. Again, the improvement was dramatic ‹ in everything
from mood and energy to ***uality. At the six month mark, I continue to
notice improvements in my ***ual health. The most interesting part of this
experience has been the return of a healthy libido. Things like getting an
erection while dancing with your wife should be the norm ‹ not a rare
occurence.

My advice is to find a doctor who is knowledgeable and comfortable with the
various TRT options, and with his help, experiment to see if you notice any
improvement on HCG or TRT. There is really very little downside that I can
see to embarking on a course of treatment for six weeks or so to see if you
notice an improvement. If you do, great. If not, at least you know the
problem wasn't related to testosterone. By the way, a full blood workup,
including estrogen levels, thyroid function, and other factors, can reveal a
great deal more about what is happening to you hormonally. But only a doctor
who believes in this form of therapy is likely to order the right tests.

Most of the users who have commented on Dostinex in this group were not very
impressed with its effectiveness and improving libido or quality/quantity of
erections.

Wanderer

d hamilton

My most recent bloodwork shows:

My T 347 (241-827)
Free T 5.69 (5.0 - 21.0)
% Free T 1.64 (1.0 - 2.7)
Prolactin 22.2 (2.1 - 17.7)

The Prolactin is a little high but the doc isn't worried about it. My
libido is still low and I have some ED.

The doc says that it is fact that T levels of 100 are enough to
provide adequate erections. I don't know -- I am under a lot of
stress. I've given up caffeine.

I'm taking 1 mg of Dostinex twice a week.

Back in January I felt a lot better. I can remember dancing with my
wife at a New Year's Eve party and getting an erection. That had not
happened in years. Sometime after that I was driving up the road and
noticed a woman walking up her driveway -- she was a cutie and I had
some stirrings ... again, very uncommon.

Lately -- for the past several months -- I don't feel anything. My
bloodwork is better than it was then, so maybe I've got some
psycholigical stuff going on.

Anyway, to tackle the task at hand. I'm sticking with 1 mg Dostinex
twice a week. We may continue to see some improvement at this level;
maybe not.

I'll do the Google Groups research tonight when I get home. I'm
posting this as much to blow off steam as anything else. If someone
has the inclination to reply to the following I'd appreciate it.

Questions:
1. Zinc -- how does it work? There was a period of several weeks when
I noticed that I was having periods of better days and periods of
not-as-good days -- physically speaking. After a few ups and downs I
noticed that the period of good days always seemed to come when I was
taking Zinc as suggested. I've lost my copy of Shippen, but it seems
I read here that Zinc interferes with the enzyme Aromatase's
conversion of T to E.
My wife and I have recently separated. Prior to that there was
a period where I didn't feel that I needed what Zinc seemed to be
doing for me ... so I've been off it for a while. I've started taking
it again -- will it do anything to boost my T?

2. Prolactin -- aside from taking more meds, is there anything I can
do to lower it naturally?

3. Dostinex -- how much can a person safely take? Is anybody taking
more that 1 mg. twice a week? Does it seem to help that much more?

4. Obesity -- I weigh just over 310 pounds. I've dropped almost 60
pounds since I've started Dostinex. I know obesity has something to do
with the amount of Aromatase activity a person has going on in his
body. Can I expect my T levels to increase as I slim down. I have
about 70 pounds to go.

Finally -- maybe I'm totally fine now and have nothing to bitch about;
maybe I should quit second-guessing my doc. My state of mind is
generally better. I'm more relaxed as a rule. I've lost weight.
Perhaps without the stress of the separation I'd be A-number-1 OK.
Still ... I feel like I'm close ... but no cigar.

As always, thanks for being there.

d hamilton

The answers to my questions. (Many of you already knew this, but for
some it may be news.)


From http://www.andropausecanada.com/when.php

Obesity

Studies indicate that obesity is directly related to
over-estrogenization in both ***es. All fat cells contain aromatase,
so an increase in fat cell population will cause an increase in the
conversion of testosterone into estrogen. This will alter the
testosterone:estrogen ratios. Obesity is also known to lower
testosterone levels at all ages. This may be an excellent reason to
trim down and tone up!

Zinc Deficiency

Zinc inhibits the levels of aromatase in the body. If zinc levels are
inadequate, the levels of aromatase rise. Zinc is also necessary for
normal pituitary functions. Without zinc, the pituitary gland cannot
release the luteinizing and follicle stimulating hormones that
stimulate the testes to produce testosterone. An interesting note;
while zinc is necessary for testosterone production, testosterone is
necessary to maintain levels of zinc in body tissues.
[This doesn't really say more zinc is better, just that not enough
zinc is bad]

From pfizer.com: The recommended dosage of DOSTINEX Tablets for
initiation of therapy is 0.25 mg twice a week. Dosage may be increased
by 0.25 mg twice weekly up to a dosage of 1 mg twice a week according
to the patient's serum prolactin level.
[So I've topped out]

http://qualitycounts.com/fpprolactin.html suggests that the following
items will lower prolactin: Pygeum, Zinc, and Saint John's Wort among
others. I need to do some more reading to determine whether this is BS
or fact. There are links from the site to buy said products.

If anyone has had success with some of the prolactin-lowering
alternatives, please speak up.

Thanks again,

rich

Hello HD,

1) Zn helps T production and reduces aromatization of it... why not take
50-100 mg Zn per day, every day?
2) Prolactin... nothing that I know of, other than Bromocryptine.... but
Bromocryptine of course not considered "natural".
3) Dostinex... I don't know the safety limits of it... but it's always safer
to take the recommended dose... while you're on Dostimex, is your doc
monitoring your PRL?
4) Obesity is a significant factor... body fat encourages estrogen... is
your doc monitoring your E2?... slimming down should help your T.
5) Based on your bloodwork, if you have a really good doc, while monitoring
your T and E2, he'll take your T to 1,000 and maintain it there for 4
months, and see how you feel after 4 months at 1,000, but then again, good
docs are hard to find... and as LEF says, despite of mounting evidence,
"today's physicians practice medicine as if low T has no impact on an aging
man's health."

I hope this helps.

Rich

In article <rmroov8f3f9s4k9v1ts2ktl85n21ghp4tg@4ax.com>, slabc9
@notvalid.hotmail.com says...


I don't know where he got that number from. Maybe the absolute limit
for erection is that low, but for normal male ***ual functioning,
including libido, a testosterone level of at least 300 ng/dl is


Ask him if he can provide references for his numbers - and then point
out that simple ability to achieve an erection is NOT the same as the
ability to maintain an erection and function normally.

The reference for the 300 ng/dl requirement for normal functioning:

Nieschlag, E. (1978). The Endocrine Function Of The Human Testis In
Regard To ***uality. Ciba Foundation Symposium, 62, 182-208. (From
British Journal of Medicine, 2000, 320, 858-851, by D. C. Gould, R.
Petty, & H. S. Jacobs)

I believe that publication is available on-line at the British Journal
of Medicine web site.

wanderer

I'm no doctor but...

I think your Free T is very low ‹ possibly a more significant factor for
libido and erections than total T.

My Free T was also diagnosed as very low, and my libido was nil. I sought out
a cooperative doctor who was a believer in TRT, and began with HCG therapy.
My libido and performance improved dramatically and almost immediately. When
the effects of the HCG declined, I switched to self-administered T-cypionate
injections, once a week. Again, the improvement was dramatic ‹ in everything
from mood and energy to ***uality. At the six month mark, I continue to
notice improvements in my ***ual health. The most interesting part of this
experience has been the return of a healthy libido. Things like getting an
erection while dancing with your wife should be the norm ‹ not a rare
occurence.

My advice is to find a doctor who is knowledgeable and comfortable with the
various TRT options, and with his help, experiment to see if you notice any
improvement on HCG or TRT. There is really very little downside that I can
see to embarking on a course of treatment for six weeks or so to see if you
notice an improvement. If you do, great. If not, at least you know the
problem wasn't related to testosterone. By the way, a full blood workup,
including estrogen levels, thyroid function, and other factors, can reveal a
great deal more about what is happening to you hormonally. But only a doctor
who believes in this form of therapy is likely to order the right tests.

Most of the users who have commented on Dostinex in this group were not very
impressed with its effectiveness and improving libido or quality/quantity of
erections.

Wanderer