19th April 23:08
MURDER? Show us the truth Kathleen
Nobody ever died and you know it! This slander you are spewing all over the
usenet is not doing anything but making you look like a nut. You should try
being a mother and log off the internet for a few hours a day and take care of
22nd April 19:59
MURDER? Show us the truth Kathleen (babesia heart pacemaker pregnancy)
Lisa I'm going to try to explain this so even you can understand it.
We know people have died from Lyme. It is unusual but not unheard of.
The primary reason for death directly from Lyme is high degree heart
block which is relatively unusual but happens and if a patient is not
put on a pacemaker in time, death can occur.
More people have committed suicide than died from anything else. If
you want to count those as deaths from Lyme, that wouldn't be totally
MANY people who have had Lyme have died. It isn't fair to count those
as deaths from Lyme when they are far removed from initial infection.
People die, and many of them have diseases but saying the disease
caused the death primarily isn't always true.
There are probably other rare causes of death from Lyme.
People have died from acute cases of other tickborne diseases too,
especially ehrlichia and babesia. Unusual but not unheard of.
No one is disputing any of that from what I can see.
But you and kathleen said the essence of the rico case is the vaccine
and the false standard used to qualify it.
You said that people died from the vaccine.
Name one. That is what you're being asked to do. Someone who died from
For once could you step up to the plate and produce some evidence and
a response. You have ignored every question asked of you. You have
made reckless accusations and never produce proof.
We know people can die from Lyme. It is unusual but happens.
Who died from the vaccine?
I've already dismissed the 4/13 miscarriages in one vaccine trial.
There is no showing of causality. There is between a 20 and 30 percent
incidence of miscarriage in pregnancy ordinarily. The older the
patient the higher the percent incidence. 4/13 is not significantly
higher than that and the small database means that 1 case more or less
skews the statistic so that isn't significantly higher. There's also
absolutely no showing of a relationship between vaccination and
miscarriage. There's no discussion of the age of the patient or any
other risk factors.
So that just doesn't count as proof of anything, and definitely not
proof of "murder."
When you use the word "murder" we have to assume that we are talking
about the definition that exists not whatever one crazy english witch
thinks at the moment she says it.
So who died from the vaccine? Show us the report. Show us a medical
conclusion that there was a relationship. And then explain to us how a
death from a medication or vaccine in a drug trial approved by the
government and monitored by the FdA was "murder."
Put up or shut up for once Lisa.
22nd April 19:59
MURDER? Show us the truth Kathleen (heart)
You are too stupid to see, that *I*
do not matter. A single person does not
We have soldiers dying in Iraq, does anyone
pathologize them for giving up their lives
for Life? (Supposedly)
Who said this:
"Thou shalt love the lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all
they soul and all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it. Thou shalt love thy neighbor as
thyself. On these two commandments hang all the *law* and the
Is EVERY freedom fighter insane? THAT is
what these FRAUDS would like to have you
believe. Only history tells us otherwise.
History tells us cultures last, when the
community's goals align with the above
DO YOU THINK I CARE ABOUT BEING SUED FOR
ANYTHING? Whatever suit it might be, it is
not a legitimate one, against that criteria,
therefore I am not afraid of Crooks.
*I* have no harmed anyone. The Crooks
clearly cannot say the same, and this
MURDER, and other harm, is going to stop.
Tell me Christ was wrong and Reveal what
you are, and who/what you represent.
Tell me the concept that a COMMUNITY's suvival
does not depend on effecting fair and equal
treatment for the members.
TELL ME IT ISN'T LOGICAL to fight CRIME,
and then you'll have to TELL ME YOU ARE
TOO *AFRAID* to do the same.
Sealing the fate of your offspring.
22nd April 19:59
MURDER? Show us the truth Kathleen
Lisa...I actually couldn't agree more...and well said. For once your
hair-trigger temper pays off in a beneficial way.
Shame, though, that so often you are too busy yelling at people and
calling them names...to listen to them, respect their opinions...and
find that there are actually many areas of agreement and common cause
to be had.
25th April 18:01
MURDER? Show us the truth Kathleen (withdrawal autoimmune)
Okay Weisman, I am going to explain the essential problem with the
vaccine studies for you --again, I am not making any legal points here
and certainly not accusing ANYONE of murder. Nonetheless, it behooves
me to answer a question about the science, which you posed. I am NOT
defending Kathleen NOT AT ALL but speaking wholly for myself.
The problem with Lymerix is that once patients have been vaccinated,
the OspA in the vaccine becomes so reactive in human serum that it
causes the vaccinated to test with what appear to be fully diagnostic
by CDC-standards Western blots. Again, this is not in dispute. Glaxo
itself has admitted this, and it was published in peer-review by a
number of mainstream scientists including Persing and Molloy.
BECAUSE vaccinated individuals as a group have highly positive Western
blots with many bands, and because many Lyme patients also have highly
positive Western blots with many bands, there is a problem with the
standard, and it is this: If the vaccinated individual has an adverse
reaction that is Lymelike (as most of the adverse reactions were) how
can you tell the difference between an adverse event and Lyme disease?
You really can't. Both individuals will have Lymelike symptoms and a
positive Western blot.
If you cannot tell the difference between an adverse event and Lyme
disease, you cannot prove for sure that the vaccine is even a vaccine.
Do you see where I am going here?
This is especially relevant since so many in the larger trials were
from endemic regions and thus had significant exposure to real Lyme
disease. Under such cir***stances it is impossible to pinpoint the
true efficacy of the vaccine, and perhaps impossible to prove to an
acceptable standard that the vaccine had any efficacy at all.
Look --I am not saying it is criminal, I am not even saying the
vaccine didn't work. I am simply saying the studies were muddied by
this problem, and it was a HUGE problem that was barely mentioned
until finally some scientists --and they were the mainstream
people--published on it. All this poses a problem in terms of
evidence. If this is the level of proof scientists and our government
agencies are accepting as okay before they vaccinate thousands and
thousands of people, well, I'd say we have a big problem with the
system that goes way beyond Lyme disease.
You can see there is a troubling issue here, can't you. Certainly,
there are many mainstream scientists extremely troubled by this, as
well they should be.
The issue is even more troubling because of the theory that some Lyme
patients with specific genetic vulnerablities may be suffering
autoimmune disease caused by OSPA --the VERY protein used to make the
vaccine. This theory happens to be that of Allen Steere, who also led
the vaccine trials.
This theory is so prominent that Steere's colleagues at Tufts patented
another OspA vaccine with the suspect epitope removed --and stated in
their patent that the product was important because of the potential
side-effects of the OspA used in Lymerix.
Finally, while the FDA has called the number of adverse events
reported in this vaccine acceptable, the truth is that these equaled
numbers in the most problematic vaccines on the market, vaccines for
diseases much more deadly than Lyme.
Okay, so in sum, we need to ask scientists to be accountable when they
produce junk like this. Perhaps they think that those of us in the lay
public are just too stupid to grasp all this, but we are not. We need
to ask our government agencies to be accountable when they approve a
product with such a muddy standard. When there are large numbers of
adverse reports in a situation such as this --whether or not causality
has been established-- we need to take the stance of the watchdog
instead of the rubber stamp.
If you believe that these problems had nothing to do with the
withdrawal of the vaccine, you are extremely naive.
I know Glaxo isn't paying my salary or supporting my research grants,
so I have no trouble speaking out.
25th April 18:02
MURDER? Show us the truth Kathleen (lyme)
That wasn't what he said. He was asking for a linkage, a causal
connection between the vaccine trials and a RICO case or murder.
You seem to want to insist on arguing what people are NOT saying.
But on the issues you raised...no, you couldn't be more wrong.
The diagnosis of lyme disease is a CLINICAL diagnosis.
The removal of OspA and B from the research/surveillance critieria
used by the CDC is irrelevant. These are not diagnostic standards.
Obviously, if you have a vaccine based on OspA...then testing for it
with the then existing testing methods posed a problem for
If, on the other hand, a patient is evaluated who has never had the
vaccine administered...and that person shows OspA...then you certainly
don't exclude the diagnosis on that basis.
What never seems to get mentioned during these discussions, is that at
he same time the vaccine work was progressing...so was work on a new
generation ELISA that is capable of distinguishing between
artificially-induced OspA(the vaccine, and the that occuring
It's currently available and in use. It has a claimed 99%
sensitivity...98% specificity. It is NOT, however, the currently
accepted reserch/surveillance standard, even though it would appear to
be better than the current ELISA/Blot combination.
The vaccine was widely reported to cause injury. My understanding is
that it was most likely hurried into production...probably NEGLIGENTLY
The REASON it was pulled from the market, however, was as a result of
a settlement of a class-action lawsuit whose purpose was exactly
that...to have it removed from production.
One of the great mysteries here is why someone would say their
testimony had anything to do with this.Seems like the FDA went right
ahead and allowed it into the market, despite that very persuasive
My understanding is that there are a great number of private actions
currently pending over injuries sustained by the vaccine. My guess is
that the vaccine was pulled in an effort to limit their liability,
(That stuff about working for Glaxo is virtually a trademark of a
certain individual around here, by the way...as is "driving the
getaway car", etc.).
She thinks she's cute.