evetsm@rocketmail.com

<But, most importantly, Gary has completely ignored the real point,
which is
that his conclusions - which are based upon mistakes, hyperbole,
redefinitions,
incomprehension, lies and willful ignorance - are what are really being
discussed here.>

Here again is a history of screwed up thinking from the Strangler
nutcase. Judge for yourself some of the conclusions of this idiot.
I'll just keep posting it to remind you how dumb this guy really is.
Apart from in his own mind. Mind you.


This one particulary belongs in the hall of fame of getting it
backwards LOL ! :

Davew aka Strangler : " As far as I can
see, it's based on a false premise, too, which is that
hyperglycemia causes diabetes, which, thanks to you, we all
know works the other way around. "


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%2...gle.com&rnum=2

Davew you are so confused here that you cannot remember what you did
or did not write and where you are lying ! Watch how he contorts his
way out of this one. He is the master of the mumbo-jumbo, big-worded,
pseudoscientific obsfucation. Here are the quotes from davew :

This one was from Nov 2002 !

"Still seems to me like the simplest chain of events is:
Psoriasis -> inflammation (plus other risk factors) -> Syndrome X
"

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=ps...aol.com&rnum=6


"I've now also found (although I can't believe I'm the first) a
seemingly good biological mechanism through which psoriasis can
cause IR, which long-term may lead to all the diseases of Syndrome
X."

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=ps...aol.com&rnum=4


Davew based his argument on pearls such as this one. No wonder his
conclusions are standing on their head, his premise is standing on its
head. Diabetes causes hyperglycemia ! Say what ?!

" As far as I can
see, it's based on a false premise, too, which is that
hyperglycemia causes diabetes, which, thanks to you, we all
know works the other way around. "

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=ps...orp.com&rnum=3


Arse about face again, Davw, psoriasis seems to cause diabetes in his
looking glass world LOL! :


"My hypothesis states that something about
psoriasis *causes* glucose metabolism problems. Once those problems
exist, the diabetes and its complications can run rampant, so of
course diabetes caused by psoriasis can be controlled by glucose
control. I'm just stipulating that it might be the psoriasis that
knocks that system out of whack, rather than some paleolithic gene.

stranglerw@aol.com

I answered all of these already, when Gary first brought them up, and several
times since then. He ignored my thoroughly straight-forward answers then,
most-likely because he can't insult me when I'm right. Suffice it to say, the
American Diabetes Association agrees with me on one of them (putting much egg
on GARY's face), and the other things Gary laughs at are just his LIES about
what I mean. His harping on the "psoriasis causes diabetes" nonsense is
because he refuses to acknowledge that I do not mean that ALL diabetes is
caused by psoriasis (a position which is absurd, which is why I don't adhere to
it), only that psoriasis leads to a higher risk of diabetes and other
insulin-resistance problems.

Note also that he quotes one of them twice, as if I'd said it twice. In
reality, Gary is quoting from his own posts, and can't keep straight what he's
quoted and what he hasn't.

Of course, Gary points out things about me only because he's trying to distract
people away from the real issue, which is that HIS conclusions are based on
garbage.

Still, if he really wants to play the "look at the idiotic things this schmuck
has written" game...

Gary wrote, on 12/17/1997:
"Is P skin, by definition, infected?"
http://google.com/groups?selm=882382...40dejanews.com

12/18/1997:
"Among the bark, grasses and twigs were crickets. Yes, 8 (or 6?) legged
critters."
http://google.com/groups?selm=882479...40dejanews.com

3/7/1998:
"As a previous poster has said, the drug companies probably synthesise these
esters, because they have no hold on the generic. Anecdotally, at least,
fumeric acid in natural forms seems to have some value in treatment."
http://google.com/groups?selm=6drrba...1.dejanews.com
[Dave's note: Fumaric acid in "natural" form is used to give a sour taste to
Gummi Bears. It is not useful for psoriasis.]

4/7/1998:
"If it is true that they are considering a ban of tar products in Europe, then
I can only conclude that there are drug companies behind this."
http://google.com/groups?selm=6gdbih...1.dejanews.com
[Dave's note: the European coal-tar ban is on _all_ coal tar and creosote
products, including wood preservatives, cosmetics, and a zillion other non-drug
uses - the idea that the drug companies, which make and sell coal tar shampoos
and ointments, were "behind" it is ludicrous.]

6/1/1998:
"Well, classically, a person with Celiac or malabsorbtion has fatty stools that
float or steatorrhea. Ironically the treatment *may* be not to eliminate fats
but to eliminate grains..."
http://google.com/groups?selm=6kurpn...1.dejanews.com
[Dave's note: The absolutely correct treatment for Celiac Disease is to
eliminate wheat and some other grains, no "may" about it.]

6/5/1998:
"I don't buy the stress explanation. How do we explain the clearing of P by
concentration camp inmates ?"
http://google.com/groups?selm=6l9qnd...1.dejanews.com
[Dave's note: we don't explain clearing of psoriasis in concentration camp
inmates because it was a MYTH.]

And, most appropriately:
6/23/1998:
"...I have a heap of circumstantial evidence. I need people to challenge it..."
http://google.com/groups?selm=6mpdre...1.dejanews.com

Dave again: The problem was (and is) that when people successfully challenged
Gary's "evidence," he quickly began calling them names and telling them their
opinions didn't matter. Gary was (and is) completely uninterested in having
people "challenge" his evidence, all he really wants is _validation_. For
that, he should go see a priest.

And this was all in just about six months. I could go on and on, citing gaffe
after gaffe of Gary's over the next bunch of years. Should I?

- Dave W.
http://psorsite.com/

mrs. or mr. perry

Dave do you have a link or something leading to some documentation about a
connection between psoriasis and developing type 2 diabetes? I think you know that
I have had p all of my 63 years. I have also had type 2 diabetes for seven years.
My sister, who is four years senior to me, has had the same experience.

Thanks

--
Chuck
-ô¿ô-
~

http://www.psoriasis.org/forum/

stranglerw@aol.com

experience.

Chuck, what there is right now is a few studies which show that diabetes is
more prevalent among psoriatics than the general population. There are also a
bunch of other studies which show that "Syndrome X" markers tend to be elevated
amonst psoriatics as well, meaning that we've got to be slightly more vigilant
in taking care of our hearts and blood-sugar levels than other people.

_Why_ this is the case is not known. Psoriatics do tend to smoke more than
normal, drink more than normal, and be more obese than normal, all of which
could lead to the Syndrome X markers being elevated even without psoriasis
being a part of the equation.

What's obvious is that for people with both diseases, successfully treating one
of them doesn't mean you'll be able to stop treatment for the other, or even
reduce your dosages. They're not _that_ connected. One may contribute to
exacerbations of the other, however, but which way and by how much is
completely unknown (though I and others clearly have our guesses).

There is precisely one drug which has shown promise for both diseases
simultaneously, but it isn't approved for psoriasis at all (if memory serves,
there has only been one study showing effects on psoriasis). Meanwhile, a few
of the stronger drugs used to treat psoriasis can make insulin resistance (and
thus type-II diabetes) worse, and one insulin-sensitizing drug can exacerbate
psoriasis. Other treatments for psoriasis, and other treatments for insulin
resistance and/or diabetes, have no known effects on the other disease (in
other words, coal tar doesn't treat diabetes, and losing weight has never been
demonstrated to help reduce psoriasis symptoms).

(By the way, the rate of type-_one_ diabetes among psoriatics appears to be
proportionally higher than that of type-II. My guess on this is that the two
auto-immune diseases share a common gene, but that's speculation based on one
study abstract and a little probability calculation.)

The best places to get more information about the studies showing the
correlations between the two diseases are a few web sites:

Gary Jackson's web site:
http://www.geocities.com/evetsm.rm/p...yndrome_x.html

Ed Anderson's web site:
http://pinch.com/skin/docs/niddm-risk.html

and my own web site:
http://psorsite.com/docs/evetsm.html

Both the American Diabetes Association and the National Psoriasis Foundation
are mostly silent on this issue, probably because so much is unknown about any
causal relationships which might exist between the two diseases.

- Dave W.
http://psorsite.com/

mrs. or mr. perry

Thanks Dave.
Do you know of other autoimmune disorders that appear to be more prevalent in
people with psoriasis?


--
Chuck
-ô¿ô-
~

http://www.psoriasis.org/forum/

stranglerw@aol.com

Celiac Disease springs to mind, but that's from just two studies, both by the
same author, so it's unclear if it's a "real" connection or not.

It's important to note here that the NPF only mentions psoriatic arthritis as
associated with psoriasis in its main FAQ,

http://www.psoriasis.org/facts/faq/

and then mentions an association with Crohn's Disease in the PA section of the
site:

http://www.psoriasis.org/facts/psa/associated.php

though Crohn's isn't yet classified as an autoimmune disease, as far as I can
tell. I can't find the NPF mentioning connections to any other diseases,
autoimmune or otherwise, but it's late and I'm rushing.

Of course, psoriasis isn't strictly an autoimmune disease, either, since the
immune cells involved aren't _attacking_ the skin, but are instead
inappropriately activated into defending against some invader which doesn't
necessarily exist. Psoriasis exhibits the characteristics of wound _healing_,
even, in which the immune cells trigger the skin to rapidly reproduce to fix
big gaping holes which shouldn't exist (and in psoriasis, don't exist). This
is why the NPF has shied away from calling psoriasis an autoimmune disease, and
instead calls it an "immune-mediated" disease.

- Dave W.
http://psorsite.com/

mrs. or mr. perry

I asked because of a disease that I formerly had, but is in remission now. I will
probably murder the spelling, but I will spell if phonetically. It is called
episcloritis. It would cause the white part of one eye, or at times both, to become
totally blood red. The ophthalmologist said it is an autoimmune disorder and that I
needn't worry so long as it did not become endoscloritis, which causes blood
vessels to grow into the eye and is very painful and may cause blindness. After
having it for approximately ten years it went into spontaneous remission. Don't
know if it will ever come back or not.

I have wondered to about IBS. We have discussed that here and in the diabetes
support ng.

--
Chuck
-ô¿ô-
~

http://www.psoriasis.org/forum/

evetsm@rocketmail.com

This guy is thicker than even I thought ! Now , some psoriasis causes
diabetes ! LOL ! Wow ! It is not the quantity we are talking about,
bozo, it does not exist at all ! You still think it does, but only a
little ! LOL !


That is to emphasis how absurd your premise(diabetes->hyperglycemia)
is and it then follows everything else related is absurd. It is. Still is.

I am quoting you , bozo. Word for word.

Rubbish , the natural fumaric acid found in Fumarin, the herb, has
been used for psoriasis for centuries.

I still do.

Unless they have new treatments with patents to peddle. They do.


Not according to clinical results from Lutz , who studied this for
years. I quoted him, I respect him. Still do.

Moot. Nobody knows for sure. Not an important point in any case.

Only in your own scrambled mind. How could you ever coherently
challenge it when you got the premise wrong ? If you could not even
see the progression from hyperglycemia to diabetes, when you thought
is was diabetes to hyperglycemia, when you could not even see that
inflammation caused psoriasis and thought psoriasis caused
inflammation(AND syndrome X!!!! LOL !) you were in no position to
argue anything. Still aren't. It was a nightmare. Still is.

Next ! You blithering idiot.

joy

Then I have a question. Why do I find that wound healing has slowed since I
got P?

This

disease, and

evetsm@rocketmail.com

Make that "psoriasis causes some diabetes", according to Davew.
Whatever. Psoriasis never causes diabetes ! If it did clearing
psoriasis with coal tar would clear any diabetes associated with
psoriasis. It is preposterous, but Davew "alice in wonderland"
Strangler , believes it ! LOL ! Wow !