trevor best

On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 08:57:15 +0100


Complete and utter bollocks.

--
People say I'm old fashioned.
That's poppy****!

clint sharp

In message <20070824185107.4bb540b2@voyager>, Trevor Best
<newsreply@besty.org.uk> writes

Elucidate please, perhaps Novell and many others wrote dodgy software
that discriminated against AMD 386 chips? Perhaps *all* the benchmarking
software I used on the AMD 486 chips was subverted by Intel to recognise
AMD chips and report lower performance or maybe, just maybe, that
missing cache memory really did make a difference? Perhaps all the AMD
Athlons that I have replaced for clients replaced didn't cook themselves
and were just pining for the fjords?

This is *ALL* do***ented and a matter of historical fact, you can go and
Google for any of it and find out the truth if you so wish but I suspect
you won't bother.

--
Clint Sharp

clint sharp

In message <slrnfcu5st.dse.h@realh.co.uk>, Tony Houghton <h@realh.co.uk>
writes


They still expire rather quickly if the cooling fails though, the P3 and
up will just run at lower clock speeds and then shutdown safely. The
later AMD chips are better but.... I believe the AMD server offerings
still do a good volcano impression if the cooling fails (not seen by
myself but a colleague was impressed, unlike the owner who was last seen
kicking said box down a corridor)

Yeah, I hear all that all the time, I just want systems that work and
stay that way though. The performance/pound ratio isn't big enough to
make me want to compromise stability and reliability, colleagues who run
AMD always seem to be tweaking and fixing and re-installing or buying
better cooling. My systems just work. Whatever floats it for you, I know
people who enjoy tinkering with computers and software for fun, I do it
for profit so my values are different, I vote for reliability and lower
maintenance costs and so do my clients. Almost none of them run games as
company policy and the couple who do also use Intel kit, the AMD stuff
in the labs is for compatibility testing only, all the real work is done
on *very* high end Intel stuff (dual Quad core Xeon desktop
workstations, drool..).

IME it's *very* rare to find AMD chips on the desktop and AMD chips are
definitely in the minority in datacentres, I can only think of one
corporate who uses them a lot, they use desktop AMD64 HP boxes as a
Redhat Linux Enterprise servers at branches, the decision was made on
price and I think the manager involved is regretting it after only 7
months. Intel still rules the business world and there are good reasons
for that. AMD tends to be used in low end low value kit where redundancy
is high or function isn't critical although I have just seen a multi CPU
AMD server being tested on one site (sounded like a Harrier taking off
but I'm not sure if thermal management drivers were loaded)


Rumoured is the operative word here, I have tested many big name Intel
systems for stability up to and including the current batch of Quad core
chips and they have all been rock solid running Mersennes prime software
(the Intels also outperform the equivalent and 'higher' spec AMD chips
too, go figure!) with no performance drop off. You need to make sure the
cooling is good and there's enough airflow, no internal cables blocking
airways etc. but that's no different to any other CPU. The big names
generally take care to make sure the cooling works (ultra SFF Dells
excepted). I've seen lots of custom 'designed' systems where heat-sinks
have been fitted incorrectly, too much heatsink compound or cables all
over the place, in fact any number of 'sins' that affect the cooling, I
don't believe they would work properly or optimally regardless of the chip installed.


The P/No is the way to go, even in the same series there can be
significant differences. Model numbers are too generic unfortunately.
LOL, try a Dell for real confusion, even with the service tag which
should identify the machine perfectly, you get a *huge* mishmash of
different drivers that obviously can't be for the same machine.

Damnit, I hate that. Fortunately HP only do that on the retail grade
stuff AFAIK. Always worth getting a restore disk if it's offered
(usually via a redemption form in the docs) although I know it's not your system.


They pretty much all only allow one burn from a recovery partition but
leave the partition on the disk for recovery if needed. There are
utilities out there that allow you to reset the counter apparently.
Personally, I'd have imaged the whole disk first but it's a bit late for
that now I suppose.

Depends which version, you can lose a huge amount of stuff out of a
Windows install source if you know what you do and don't need (think
drivers and hardware specific stuff), the files will also be compressed
although I'm not sure how much that saves, I'd suspect in the region of
1.3:1 or slightly higher, depends how much multimedia and some other factors.


Hmm.. But XP is just under a gigabyte for a bare install, maybe you have
a bunch of apps on there too and/or you have the swapfile included in
the image?
--
Clint Sharp

trevor best

On Sat, 25 Aug 2007 10:16:12 +0100

Did you fit them in the first place?


I won't bother, I've heard about the 386 bit before but who gives a
flying **** about them? I've had AMD chips since the Athlon
Thunderbirds, need a heatsink the size of a house? No, just need to
fit one properly.

If you don't pump your tyres up properly and they wear out fast in one
place that's not the tyre manufacturer's fault is it?

AMD chips were cheaper than Intel and were favoured by home builders,
most of which were above their station in thinking they could build a
computer, they thought these things were like Lego and would just snap
together and go. I hope they don't turn their hands to building kit
cars.

I've got a plethora of AMD chipped machines, ranging from TBird 1.2s
overclocked to 1.5GHz to XP2800+s OC'd to XP3200 speeds, some supplied
whole from the likes of Aira, some home built, none of them have heat
problems, none of them have driver problems.

Bad workman always blames his tools.

--
People say I'm old fashioned.
That's poppy****!

tony houghton

In <hK4gW1E6B$zGFwvf@clintsmc.demon.co.uk>,

No, P3s crash (if you're lucky). Athlon XPs onwards do have thermal
protection. There was a famous case of this failing in a prototype
motherboard when the feature had just been introduces because the
motherboard didn't respond quickly enough to the heatsink suddenly being
completely removed. Gigabyte expressed serious concern. But heatsinks
don't suddenly disappear in practical working conditions anyway. Your
friend of a friend was either misinformed or used something like a PC Chips motherboard.

That's because they enjoy tinkering, not because they have to. I ran my
last AMD with the stock cooler but slowed the fan down with a resistor
to cut down noise. It never went over 55C. I'd still be using it now but
I gave it to my dad whose P4/Asus P4PE had packed up with a "System
failed CPU test". I had to fit a Zalman cooler to that to make the noise
bearable and it wasn't even a Prescott.

Now I'm using a Core 2 Duo because that worked out to be the best thing
to buy at the time, not because I'm a permanent fan of one or the other.
But I still wonder how well that compares to AMD in 64-bit mode seeing
as how the software industry is dragging its feet so much in supporting
x86_64. Surely there must be some very strong incentive driving that inertia IYSWIM.


That's mainly because Intel have more aggressive marketing, offering
huge discounts to large OEMs and subsidising adverts with the Intel
logo/jingle. But even Dell started bringing out AMD models because Intel
P4s were so obviously inferior. Any self-respecting home builder would
have chosen AMD until a year or so ago. [Snip]


All I can think of is that the recovery partition was already corrupt
before I ever started. The owner hadn't put anything personal on it yey
so I didn't see any need to back up its current state.


It's a few years old so it doesn't have as much crap as you usually get
nowadays, like dubious big-name "security" applications; just a few
Toshiba gizmos for the on-board devices IIRC [1]. Whether it includes
the swap file depends on whether that version of Ghost could recognise
it and treat it specially I suppose. BTW, it can only install to a FAT
volume, leaving it up to you to convert it to NTFS. I'm surprised
Windows can do that at all let alone without making you pay more for an
add-on utility.

[1] I can't really remember because it's a long time since I used the
Windows installation on it. I suppose I ought to boot it up more often
just in case it becomes so out of date that it gets infected with
something in the time it takes to download the updates ;-).

--
TH * http://www.realh.co.uk

clint sharp

In message <20070825121229.4e4a7baf@voyager>, Trevor Best
<newsreply@besty.org.uk> writes


You're an idiot, you first say 'utter bollocks' and then admit that what


excellent AMD286 as an example? You're not making a convincing argument so far.

If I get a flat tyre I have never been told I have to replace the engine though. Not convinced.


Were and were... still not convincing me.

So what, it just illustrates that the chips are fragile and temperamental. Not convinced.


Irrelevant, you have to have a kit car inspected and licensed before you
put it on the road. I've never yet heard of anyone having to get their
PC inspected before they can run it.


Overclocking is fun, I have played in the past but it's hardly worth the
effort and expense you can incur unless running benchmarks is all you
want to do with your machine, in general use you hardly notice the
difference and my life is such that an extra half second waiting for my
PC is not going to hurt me or anyone around me.

LOL, in what way did I blame my tools? All my tools are absolutely fine
and fit for purpose, sometimes the operator does make mistakes though, I
have fried an Athlon XP chip by powering up the system without a
heatsink after fitting the new chip, I was so impressed by that AMD chip
that I immediately went and bought another one. Even someone with
20+years of PC repair and building can make mistakes sometimes, had it
been an Intel chip I'd have got away with it but because it was AMD, I
had to fork out for another chip from my own pocket because I'm honest
like that and don't pass the cost of my mistakes on to customers.
--
Clint Sharp

clint sharp

In message <slrnfd0dcg.5hk.h@realh.co.uk>, Tony Houghton <h@realh.co.uk>
writes

I've not seen one fried, crashed until it cooled down yes but not dead.


Umm, are you sure, I've got several fried Athlon XPs that say not. Using
chipsets from VIA to NVidia.


I've seen one that did (CPU socket 'ears' snapped in use and heatsink
hit the bottom of the case) but you're 99.999% correct there.

Nope, neither, was a rather expensive Opteron based multi CPU server. I
got to see pics of the aftermath.

Possibly but there seem to be more failures, possibly because they tinker I suppose.

I've never had a problem with a working 'stock' cooler, I generally fit
the AMD ones because it's as cheap to get the retail packaged chips for
repairs complete with an approved cooler. I have had problems with chips
dying under *failed* stock coolers though.

Hmm.. Nasty. Did you try the chip in another board? I'd suspect a
motherboard issue before the chip but I have seen Intel chips exhibit
strange behaviours before (one of 8 Xeon chips failing intermittently
under W2K Advanced server specifically for instance)


My main machine is a P4 3.2GHz, the fan noise isn't deafening but
audible and I've not used any 'fancy' cooler but have enabled thermal
fan control so it only speed up when it needs to (rarely)

Nice chips. Good value and good performance.

Surely there's a message there. Too soon to market. All the 64 bit stuff
does at the moment is require you to have faster more expensive hard
disk subsystems and memory to shovel all that data around quick enough
for the CPU to use unless you have some very custom software that makes
use of the chips properly, AFAIK, there's not much if any consumer 64bit software around yet?


LOL, I'd not got you pegged for a conspiracy theorist... You could be right though.


Still means the Intel chip is a better deal for the corporate though.
You can buy some very nice hardware for not much cash now, specially if
you buy numbers. (Buy 10 Dells, get 2.5 free!)


Most of which are in the Home/small business areas of the market. Take a
wander into the medium/big business bits and see how many there are.

Possibly, but the recovery stuff does tend to be pretty good at sanity
checking itself. To be honest, if I ever do something like resizing a
partition I always image the disk first, it's cheap insurance especially
with the price per MB being so low for hard drives to create images on.
Hopefully the new recovery disk set will sort things out for you, it's a
nasty place to be stuck.

You can always rip the swapfile out if you have Ghost Explorer, temp directories too.


Ahh, you're talking about the original Toshiba recovery disks I think?
If that's the case, yes, they do use a couple of disks, one contains he
base image and the other contains the applications, some do run to three
disks and one I have seen uses two DVDs. Neither of which is anywhere
near full though. There was a reason for the FAT only install, I think
it was actually a decision Toshiba made rather than a limitation of the
image utility though. Are we talking about a Sat Pro 6100 or similar?

Well, there are definitely companies out there that will sell you a
product to do that conversion.

LOL, still running SP1 on one machine here so I can use my Wavefinder.
Not had any nasties on it so far.


--
Clint Sharp

tony houghton

In <R88Mb4G2SJ0GFwSP@clintsmc.demon.co.uk>,

I don't think there's any real thermal protection on them, IMO it's more
by luck than judgement that if and when they crash due to overheating
they stop producing more heat.

I don't think it was on the 1st generation of XPs; maybe Thoroughbred's onwards?

IIRC I damaged one of the lugs on a Socket A once, but luckily I was
about to fit a heatsink with triple clips.


I'm a bit of a noise freak so I never usually use stock coolers.
Standard S939 heatsinks were so overspec for the efficient Winchester
core though that I could use one slowed down, but once it got old even
that started making a sort of whispering noise when it got kicked in by
playing a game or something.


I don't have a spare compatible board or CPU. I tried unplugging just
about everything and a different PSU, but I forgot to try different RAM
(Crucial, but I have had one of their sticks fail and be replaced under
the lifetime guarantee before). At first it tended to boot from cold OK
then crash later, so you'd think it was overheating, but I checked the
running temperatures and later the fault became permanent. Until I
bought the replacement parts of course, then it became non-existant and
ran all day without crashing next time I tested it! It could have been
something as silly as the heatsink or fan plug coming loose, because one
of the things I did change was to put the stock cooler back on so I
could use the nice Zalman for my new C2D.


I'm fussy about noise.

x86_64 code isn't much worse than IA32 and I'm told the new instruction
set addresses one of IA32's biggest weaknesses, shortage of registers,
so there should be performance advantages too. Most Linux software is
available in x86_64 and I could appreciate the difference between my
Athlon64 3000+ and the P4 2.4GHz even in the desktop, let alone CPU
intensive stuff like compiling or processing video.

:-). When you see how easily the major Linux distros supported 64-bit
you have to wonder. [Snip]

Tecra S1. I'm thinking about replacing it soon TBH, bottom end laptops
are amazingly cheap now. Funnily enough the PC World advert for the £399
laptop came on TV just as I was typing that, and I might get one of
those if the keyboard layout doesn't have the annoying quirks of the S1
and I can find out whether the wifi is Linux compatible. Ideally I'd
like a higher res screen, but I don't think I could afford it and
although 1280x800 may not seem a big improvement over 1024x768, it means
I can comfortably get two 80 column text windows side by side which I
can't really do in 1024x768, and that's significant.

Fingers crossed. My sister's machine became a spambot despite having
Avast installed. Lack of SP2 could have been the reason it was
compromised.

--
TH * http://www.realh.co.uk

tony houghton

Bugger, should have proof-read.

In <slrnfd3vlr.ca3.h@realh.co.uk>,


--
TH * http://www.realh.co.uk

chris bolus

Chill out guys!

I'll just say that (without checking my son's laptop) that every single
computer of the 8 running, and 3 decommissoned/awaiting spares, in my
house, uses AMD processors. Of all the problems I've had with any of
them, none is down to the CPU - had duff RAM shutting down, failed PSUs,
dead HDDs, but never a problem I could point a finger at AMD for. And
most of them run 24/7 too.

Pretty well all the stuff at work uses Intel, but I don't know if that's
a conscious choice.
--
Regards, Chris (remove the arachnid to reply by e-mail)

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