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1 12th January 10:19
john lucas
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Posts: 1
Default HIStory---American Style (part 1) (imperial the action think take that slave)


Hello alt.music.michael-jackson regulars. This is my first in a long series
of replies to a most ignorant post from Icebreaker. He posted a reply to a
thread I started called "OT: Pics345 & Icebreaker". There had been this
intense side debate about Black people/issues going on for awhile & pics345
kept the heat going. In the role of prime antagonist was Icebreaker who
stunned me with his blinding ignorance. I was so stunned that I put together
that afore-mentioned post to address the issue between these two.

Well leave it to Icebreaker to reply to that & give me incentive to set him
straight on some things. After hearing all of his foolishness I wanted to
give him the history of how this still-unresolved issue affects this land.
Had no idea that it would be a topic that would not be able to fit into one
simple post.

Addressing the reply Icebreaker made to my post "OT: Pics345 & Icebreaker",
here is the first part in series to explain the history & the present of
America.
================================================== =
(1) The civil war. Hm....You put this up as an example of the country facing
up to its ethnic strife? I'm gonna TELL you what this was REALLY all about.

The War Between The States was set in stone from the year 1787, the year the
Constitution was created to save America from dissipating back into England
due to the illogical government form of confederacy. That war was inevitable
& could have happened so many times YEARS before 1861. It was delayed &
delayed & delayed with compromises & band-aids & patches to keep it from
realizing. People don't really understand the significance of what this war
stood for. This war tells the story of the political parties from the
beginning of the country under the Constitution. It really tells the story
of the country itself. I'm gonna give you some backhistory. Stick with me
because this all comes together.
************************
The modern-day slave trade, started by Portugal & immediately followed by
its next-door neighbor Spain, had financed these countries' wealth made off
of the "New World". For over 100 years these Atlantic coastal countries got
fat off of the "New World" & became superpowers. Like their ancient
conquerors the Romans (the reason those "Romantic" languages sound the way
they do),
they conquerored, conquested (conquistadors?) the original people of these
lands changing their culture & language. That's why everybody "south of the
border" speaks Spanish (and for Brazil..Portuguese).
Spain was the big winner at this. They even got as far as an Southeast Asian
island and named it for their king at the time Felipe [that's Phillip for
those who want to translate that into English] calling it Los Filipinos, the
Phillipines. Now
you know why all these Southeast Asian people always have those Spanish
names: Ferdinand Marcos, Corazon Aquino.

Spain was the superpower of Europe & other coastal countries wanted to get
in on the "New World" act. Not just any European country could do it. You
had to be on the coast, able to sail without having to cross through another
country. It's the reason why Italians Cristoforo Colombo & Amerigo Vespucci
had to sail for Espana. Best candidates for this? (other than Spain &
Portugal) France & England. Holland, Sweden & Norway squeezed themselves
into the action. To make sure Spain didn't run it all these countries knew
to get over here before the conquistadors completed their imperial master
plan of "Espana Nueva" "New Spain".

Technology at the time was not what it is now so making that trip across
that great big bathtub called the Atlantic was troublesome. Even if they got
across could they survive on this foreign
land? And for how long? It was natural for people to be curious about what's
on the other side of that water. Adventure calls & curiosity phoned it in.
It's been done before by some other European countries of Scandinavian
descent. But for some reason the stakes never stuck in this new land (Native
people?). Unfinished business & it was time to make good on this promise to
see the mysterious fabled land across that water.

If Spain was #1, France soon became #2 making their stakes in lands such as
Espanola (Hispaniola) or as the Arawaks called it Haiti & this big stretch
of land soon to be proclaimed Acadia. You know them Acadians? Them 'Cajuns?
I think they call it Canada now, not sure...

It seems all of these European countries wanted to make replicas of their
old land in this new (to them) land. Always calling something New this or
New that. Little this or Little that. Nova Scotia (New Scotland)? New
Brunswick? Venezuela (Little Venice)? New Amsterdam? New Jersey (where's Old
Jersey?)? Reminds me of many immigrants in how they name their little
sections of town. You know Chinatown & Little Italy?

Well anyway...being on top of the heap for such a long time made Spain a
little ****y & lazy. They got shortsighted & failed to take
heed of all these countries trying to win the New World lottery
(Powerball...with the Fantasy 5!). After all they got the vast land of New
Spain from Atlantic to Pacific. When you are a world superpower you NEVER
have to worry about the rug being pulled from under you. (Spain took after
its parent Rome so well).

England was trying its damndest to get a piece of the American pie. A late
1570's expedition turned out to be shit. No survivors in the land that would
one day be known as North Cackalacky. Touchdown not complete. They had to
hurry. France was spreading like wildfire meeting all these natives & trying
to pronounce these natives' name with their French vocabulary: Illinois,
Sioux & so on. Spreading down this big ol' river, a Mississippi, & making a
Louisiana for King Lewis, excuse me Louis. Those crafty Acadians (cajuns).
On top of that you got the Dutch boys (Deutsch?) getting a little handle in
this Acadian land. Got some of that northeast territory. Even Sweden making
their trademark log cabins in this New World.

England wanted to shove Spain's ****iness right up its ass & show that it
could take that #1 spot. Finally the Angles landed in this virgin land (this
thing about virgins...always keep hearing about it, virgin queens, virgin
this, virgin that). There IS a Santa Claus, Virginia. AT LAST, England gets
to try ITS shot at being an empire. With
crucial help from the native peeps the English settlers survived the land
(well some of them) & started to make these English-American colonies. But
that's a lot of work. Digging up this & laying down this & planting this &
toiling that & baking in the sun for this & getting ate by bugs of this or
that & bending for this & pushing that & moving this & cutting that &
clearing this. Why do I have to do all this damn hard work? Can't somebody
else do it? I GOT it! We'll outsource! Let them do the grunt work while we
create this empire. Hey Spain's been doing it for years. What's the number
for the agency they use to get their labor? Hello? Triangle Trade Inc.? Yes
I'm gonna need some workers....

=========
more to come
=========
John Lucas
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2 15th January 04:38
live and let ice
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Posts: 1
Default HIStory---American Style (part 1) (time hello)


You had me at "hello" Then you lost me with your endless psychobabble about
what the Civil War "really meant". I didn't read a word of it. Hopefully
someone out there will read it so that your time and effort won't have been
a total waste.

----------------------------------
ICEBREAKER
"Orlando, you can't be a pilgrim. The pilgrims had snowy white skin to match
their pure Christian souls. They didn't sacrifice coconuts to their monkey
gods."
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3 15th January 04:38
john lucas
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Posts: 1
Default HIStory---American Style (part 1) (gain so them)


Of course you wouldn't read it. No surprise there. Still I put it out there
just in case you might have the sense to hear the truth. But though it was
primarily for you I put it out there for everybody to read so that they will
know.

Civil War was America's way of dealing with its ethnic strife?! Hardly
Icefrost! Your answer shows that American history doesn't register in some
minds. Well the way it's taught how could it?
This post & many more will be coming to fill you in on the details should
you gain the testicular fortitude to read them.

John Lucas
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4 15th January 04:40
pamelakay
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Posts: 1
Default HIStory---American Style (part 1) (head)


John,

Of course I. Break is not going to read it. He is AFRAID that the truth
will slap him upside his ignorant head.

He will continue to wallow in his own racist world, by DENYING that
racism even exists.

pam
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5 15th January 04:40
bettybooptoyou
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Posts: 1
Default HIStory---American Style (part 1) (them time)


Most people don't read them because it takes too long. I like the short
posts that take a second to read and respond to. The long posts from
people just take too much time and predictable anyway. Of course I have
no idea why Icebreaker wouldn't read it but that's just my opinion on
long posts by anybody.
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6 16th January 18:45
tattoo vampire
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Default HIStory---American Style (part 1) (finger)


MYopinion bequeathed the following to Usenet:

I don't believe Icebreaker is denying that racism exists, but he has
stated very strongly that the black population needs to do more to own up
to their own problems and stop all the finger-pointing towards whites as
the source of all of black Americans' social ills. I agree to a certain
extent, such as my own belief that Affirmative Action needs to be done
away with or replaced by a better system.

All that said, inspired by an earlier post of John's, I have been doing a
little reading online about the history of slavery in this country. What
I've read thus far has been absolutely horrifying and sickening. I had no
idea how early the practice was established here or how pervasive it was.
I also didn't know about the tens of thousands of native Americans who
were enslaved.
--
[tv]

"I am not the only person who uses his computer mainly for
the purpose of diddling with his computer." Dave Barry
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7 16th January 18:46
icebreaker vs. jason
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Posts: 1
Default HIStory---American Style (part 1)


I didn't read it because it was too long. And it is irrelevant. Don't be too
long AND irrelevant because that's like committing two sins at once.

----------------------------------
ICEBREAKER
"All right, anyone who doesn't not want to avoid passing the midterm exam,
raise you hand now. Okay. Those of you who raised your hands will fail, as
you requested."
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8 16th January 18:46
john lucas
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Posts: 1
Default HIStory---American Style (part 1) (finger)


See? That's why I have some respect for Tattoo. He is willing to lay down
the gauntlet at times and come into things with an open mind.
I'll tell you honestly Tattoo even I, a black man, can't fully comprehend
the totality of how deep this really ran. I'm on my own journey to learn
more & more to get a fuller understanding of this foundational part of
American history that shapes the country to this day. Fuller than what I
already know. I try to understand it from not the "archives/ancient books"
type of way that most history is taught in but to make it come alive by
imaging these things happening today. How people would react to this & that.
Try to follow a logic of cause and effect. People don't change much in
essentials...just little details.
Basically I do a "how Spider-Man became Spider-Man" type of reasoning &
break the puzzle down. Then put it back together again to bring it up to
today. That way I can see each and every cause & effect, every piece of the
domino show to see what caused which to topple.

Hey listen...no doubt we Black people are responsible for ourselves. And as
you continue exploring the matter Tattoo you'll find that most black people
do not point the finger solely at Whites for today's problems. What you hear
Tattoo is frustration & exhausted patience with the ancient system that
still shapes the society. THAT'S what black people are talking about.
Sometimes that comes out in misdirected anger. A universal human trademark.

Keep on reading up about it Tattoo. You will obliterate that notion of
American slavery "being in the 1800's and picking cotton & heroic
abolitionists & Civil War solves all & hero Abe Lincoln". Think about the
personal human aspects of it, the social aspects of it, the economic aspects
of it, the political aspects of it as you read. Therein lies the key to why
there still exists these separate Americas.

John Lucas
P.S.: You beat me to the punch a bit there! In part 2 of that
"HIStory--American style" post I was gonna go over the slavery of Natives &
Whites & how Blacks became the model slave.
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9 16th January 18:47
mjinsider1
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Posts: 1
Default HIStory---American Style (part 1) (head)


<< PamelaKay@webtv.net (MYopinion) >>


<< John,

Of course I. Break is not going to read it. He is AFRAID that the truth
will slap him upside his ignorant head. >>


You are one to talk. You are afraid to answer Gina's simple question about your
racist remarks.

----
"Are you even rational enough to realize how dumb and stupid you
are?"

Pamela Kay Russell, AKA Pameloon, talking in her sleep.
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10 16th January 18:47
pamelakay
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Posts: 1
Default HIStory---American Style (part 1)


John,

Thank you for pointing out to Tattoo ( I was going to do it) that most
blacks do not point to whites for every problem in our society. It
really IS the system that shapes our society, that is the culprit.

Btw, I am enjoying your posts, tremendously. It makes for interesting
and enlightening reading.

pam
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