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1 4th January 09:44
mitchgord
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Posts: 1
Default hertz and cents (m tuning)


I'm in the process of ordering a D/G box from Dino Baffetti through a
dealer. Baffetti specifies reed tuning in hertz. I'd like to find out
how that works out in cents. In particular, the tuning 440/440.5 --
how many cents apart would those two reeds be?

Mitch Gordon
Guerneville, CA, US
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2 4th January 09:44
dnichols
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Default hertz and cents (pitch tune tuning)


Unfortunately, that is a function of the pitch of the reeds.
And Hz gives a closer feel of what it will *sound* like.

A cent is 1.000578 times the pitch. the 100th root of the 12th
root of 2) -- 12 halftones per octave (factor of 2), 100 cents per
halftone.

Assuming the reference A is what is being compared, 440Hz vs
440.5 Hz, the cents would work out to +1.966.

To calculate that, take the log (natural or base-10, your
choice) of the ratio between the two frequencies, and divide that by the
log (same type) of the figure for a cent given above.

A scientific calculator (mine is an old HP 15C) makes the task a
*lot* easier. :-) I could even write a program to allow me to enter two
frequencies and get cents out directly. (I actually have cents
and Hz calculations in my concertina tuning program -- for unix
systems.)

However, to get the same number of cents on a reed pair one
octave up (880:881) you need twice the Hz difference (1 instead of 0.5),
and at one octave lower, you get 220:220.25 for the same number of cents
difference -- but only 0.25 Hz difference.

Obviously, for other notes between the A octaves, you will have
yet other Hz differences.

And I believe that actual tuning is more often a compromise
between the two. A constant Hz would give the same beat note (two
pulsations per second for 0.5 Hz difference), but two notes an octave
apart would sound wrong at a constant Hz offset from the master
(especially if sounded together without the master bank). So --
presume something close to a constant Hz offset near the middle of the
keyboard, working towards constant cents towards the extreme ends.
(Note that I don't tune accordions where this is done intentionally, but
only concertinas, which normally have only one reed sounding per key per
direction, so wet tunings are not an option. :-)

I hope that this helps somewhat.

Good luck, DoN. --
Email: <dnichols@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
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3 4th January 09:45
len killick
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Posts: 1
Default hertz and cents (tuning so)


In the octave from middle C to the next C it should be about 15 cents.
Baffetti doesn't normally specify the tuning in hertz, normally he uses
the more general terms like swing and tremolo, so I expect your dealer has
ordered an instrument with a specific tuning (?).
Typical Baffetti's have a bit less than this, although for a D/G or C/F
instrument going to the UK or US the instrument might be tuned nearer to
the "Hohner Standard" of 400/440.

Len Killick


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4 4th January 09:45
len killick
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Default hertz and cents (tuning)


I thought I read 440/444.5 (where 440/444 is a typical tuning for a D/G
box). 440/440.5 is as good as nothing, it will measure about 2 cents but
that is barely noticable and would most likely be categorised 'dry' even
if it is technically not quite dry.

As I said in my previous mail typical for a D/G box is 440/444, the
"Hohner" standard, as this gives the box a punchy sound for outdoor and/or
dance music use. Len
On 30 Sep 2004 10:55:28 -0700, <usenet@d-and-d.com> wrote:


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5 4th January 09:45
j. coon
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Default hertz and cents (tuning)


For all practical purposes, a tuning of 440/440.5 would be spot on. You
would hear one pulse (or musette beat) every two seconds. The difference
in cents would be zero.

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6 4th January 09:45
ian & hilda dedic
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Default hertz and cents (pitch tune)


I agree that 4bps difference is ideal for these uses, but I've been
suggesting for years that using 438/442 instead also means that the box
plays in tune with other instruments -- and with itself, with true
octaves and righ-hand chords, and in tune with the basses.

For a 2 reed box with no stops it makes no sense at all to have one reed
at concert pitch and one sharp, this is a leftover from accordeons with
stops which have to have one reed at concert pitch for single-reed use
(usually called "clarinet" stop?).

I've converted about half a dozen people to this view so far, and every
single one agreed that the box sounds better this way. Maybe a concerted
campaign is needed? Perhaps people who tune boxes (apart from Nielsen of
course who's done all these and also agrees!) need to be informed...

Ian Dedic
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7 4th January 09:45
len killick
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Posts: 1
Default hertz and cents (free think time)


Ian has changed the subject here a bit, to a theme which could take a lot
of space...

You don't need to convert me, I've done this (438/442) setup and similar
on a lot of fixed-two-voice instruments. The problem is I don't think
there's any (big) manufacturer who will do it unless it's explained in
detail to them, and many dealers (unfortunately) will look confused and
not pass on the request at all.

It is something you can get from a repairer/tuner who is reasonably
interested in what they are doing. As I said I've been doing it on request
and on chosen instruments myself for a long time. There is a knock-on
"problem" of what then to do with the basses, as they are often tuned
higher than 440, and really need to be taken down to 440 with this treble
set-up... but that can make the box sound horribly flat if it gets near
another box, so some level of compromise is needed, and that comes down to
an indovidiual choice for each instrument depending on how it sounds more
that a pure measure of hertz & cents.

There also some interesting options for fixed 3-voice instruments besides
the old standard wide musette. But as I said, this discussion would fill a
lot of space!

Len Killick


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8 4th January 09:45
mitchgord
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Posts: 1
Default hertz and cents (m tuning)


Thanks, everyone, especially Len for the explanatations. Sounds like
the figures I was given were way out of line for what I thought I was
ordering. What I'm TRYING to get is a two-reed box tuned somewhere in
the general ballpark of 8-12 cents. How would I communicate that
tuning to Baffetti?

Mitch Gordon
Guerneville, California, US
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9 4th January 09:46
dnichols
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Posts: 1
Default hertz and cents (pitch tuning)


Hmm ... at 440 Hz A:

one halftone = 2 ^ (1/12) = 1.059463

one cent = one halftone ^ (1/100) = 1.000578

8 cents = 440 - ( ( 1.000578 ^ 8 ) x 440) = 2.0379 Hz

12 cents = 440 - ( ( 1.000578 ^ 12 ) x 440 ) = 3.0604 Hz

Where '^' means "To the power of"

But remember that *only* applies at the 440 Hz A. An octave lower would
have half the Hz difference, and an octave higher would have twice the
Hz difference.

And -- if they used a constant cents offset, the higher the
pitch of the reed, the wetter the sound -- while at the bottom octaves,
it would be a very slow, almost dry tuning.

As a concertina person, I really *don't* know what an accordion
maker would do with those figures.

Good Luck, DoN. --
Email: <dnichols@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
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10 4th January 09:46
len killick
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Posts: 1
Default hertz and cents


When an accordeon tuner is given a value for the "tremolo" reed set like
444 Hz this value applies to the a' (440Hz) note, the rest of the reeds
are tuned with lower Hz as you go up the scale and higher Hz as you go
down a scale. In practice the figure (in the example 444Hz) is applied
'more or less' to the whole c' - b' part of the scale and an example of
the rest is the next octave up is tuned to 443Hz and the next to 442Hz,
going down the octave below 444 Hz is tuned to 445Hz and the next to 446Hz
etc.

In theory simple! The catch is, that is just one example (in fact the
Hohner standard) and there are many other options for starting point and
offset. Catch two is that the mathematics and acoustics theory is fine,
but in practice the raising and lowering of the Hz value starts straight
away at the next note, but this usually measured by ear, not by machine.

Len


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