When shelly reproached me that certain people in this group were
offended by my posts, I told her that I had no respect for people who
were offended by the truth. That all that those offended people had
been doing was to scream that Jerry lied, without actually bringing any
proof that what he said about them were lies. In all the instances that
I had checked, the quotes were all from actual posts, archived by
Google.

shelly replied that I should have been <<actually *asking* those
people if the lies in question have any basis in reality.>>

I certainly don't want to inadvertently offend anyone, and the thought
that I might have wronged an innocent and well-meaning dog lover with
my words started to torture me. To the extent that I felt that finding
out the truth and offering apologies (if warranted) was worth wasting a
few hours on Google. Of course, I could have taken the easy way out, as
suggested by shelly herself, and ask her and the others if Jerry's
"lies had any basis in reality". That would have been nice - and easy,
too.

Unfortunately, blind faith is not my cup of tea, so I had no choice but
to go back to Google and search some more.

In fact, I remembered, I *had* asked both shelly and Tara how they were
punishing their dogs, in a less traumatic way than praising them for
bad behavior. Tara flatly refused to talk about the subject, blaming my
ignorance and lack of manners. shelly was more accommodating, though my
insistence on details managed to make her lose her temper, too - like
this:

Me:


dogs]


shelly:

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/...ec4c36ee?hl=en

Still puzzled, but reluctant to pursue the topic (perhaps it was just I
who was having stubborn dogs who were unimpressed with me doing
"nothing" and were just happy to carry on whatever they were doing, or
maybe shelly's "bupkis" method was so efficient with her dogs,
indeed?), I tried my luck with a Google search on our "shelly" and the
inexistent "prong collar", and - surprise, surprise! - here was shelly
herself, talking about her training method:

<<elliott does best with both stronger praise and stronger
corrections. i can use exaggeraged yeah's and good boy's
with him. i also use a deeper, louder voice when i tell him
no, oi, or uh-uh. i also sometimes use a prong collar with
him.>>

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/...85dc77d1?hl=en

Of course, shelly doesn't SHOUT at her dogs - she just uses a "deeper,
louder voice". And sometimes bupkis: "a prong collar with him".

Does she, "sometimes"? Strange, in her posts to me, she never mentioned
the prong collar - it must have slipped her mind. But here shelly is
even more explicit:

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/...eee3e368?hl=en

<<elliott, after being trained with a prong collar, walks nicely on
both martingale and buckle collars, as well.>>

So "uh-uh" and "no" and "bupkis" don't really work, unless there's a
prong collar somewhere, too. Sometimes. That is, when training the dog.

But oh, don't get the wrong idea that the prong collar as punishment is
anywhere more dog-aggressive than sincere and enthusiastic praise! When somebody else said:


shelly reassuringly replied:

<<a prong collar is actually fairly gentle, especially when
compared with standard buckle collars and choke collars.
next time you're in a pet supply store, try one on your arm or
leg. they pinch, but because of the way they are constructed,
they apply pressure uniformly around the whole neck, instead
of just at the front of the neck. that makes them gentler on
the dog's windpipe.>>

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/...77097193?hl=en

Gentler than praise for bad behavior, shelly? And doesn't it scare the
dog, shelly? Isn't there at least the possibility that the dog might
panick, when suddenly feeling the pinch on his neck?

And then, when the other person said:

shelly continued:

<<good luck! if he's really food motivated, that may work. it
didn't for my high-prey boy though. he's never chased cars,
but crittering is his number one favoritest activity.
teaching him not to bolt after animals while i was walking him
was no picnic. distracting him with food did not work, as his
brane was incapable of noticing it when there was a tasty
bunny RIGHTOVERTHERE.
using a prong collar allowed me to break his attention away
from critters and refocus it on me. his reaction to the prong
collar was "oh yeah <ding!>. i'm attached to a leash and
there's someone at the other end of it.">>

Well, the prong collar must be one of those VGTs (Very Good Things)
that make shelly's dogs come straight to her, forgetting anything else
that might have stirred their interest.

And here's some more about those VGTs:

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/...0a37a05a?hl=en

When another naïve poster is trying to suggest that


here goes shelly:

<<sometimes. sometimes not. sometimes the lead can be used to
give a correction to the dog. and, please keep in mind that
correction does not equal abuse. i give my dogs all sorts of
corrections. some of them involve leashes or collars, but
most often they are verbal or visual.>>

[...]
The other person:

shelly:

<<sometimes it's necessary to "inflict" one's will on one's dog.
life isn't all fun and games and there are times when the dog
needs to respond immediately without stopping to think about
whether or not they feel like obeying. believe me, my dogs
would rather chase Peter Cottontail than come to me. i just
can't compete with tasty bunnies. for my dogs' own good,
though, it's vital that they come immediately when called.
that required "inflicting" my will on them and i don't feel
the least bit badly about it.>> [...]


<<if you're jerking on the lead and hurting the dog, perhaps.
if you're giving a fair correction, no.>>

<<not a very good one. but no one in their right mind would
advise correcting a dog for something it hadn't yet been
taught. that would be abusive.>>

Yeah, that's really good to know.

Well, who was it that was telling lies around here?

So much about those Very Good Things that shelly's dogs know they can
count on shelly to give them, if they forget about chasing the bunny
and run straight to her, instead. shelly's dogs must be thrilled - not
a chance that they'd prefer Jerry's sound distraction and praise to the
gentle, considerate method their owner uses with them. Or, in shelly's
own words: no. Uh-uh. Bupkis.

Lucy

shore

[Is that even grammatical?]

MORE INTEREST! LESS BORING, PLEASE!!

Many thanks.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - shore@panix.com

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

shelly

context is everything. dogs who are barking in your face
generally are trying to get your attention. remove that
attention (IOW give them bupkis by removing the thing they are
seeking) and you remove the incentive to engage in that particular bad behavior.


what "inexistent" prong collar? i don't believe we've ever
discussed prong collars. if you'd just asked me about them, i
would've told you that i've used them. i've made no s33kr1t
of which training tools i've used and how i've used them.


oh noes!1!! i've been found out! if you'll note, elliott is
11 years old. i do not work with him in the same way now as i
did when he was a wee pup. i've changed, he's changed, and
we've both learned to understand each other better. believe
it or not, that's a *good* thing.

yes, i *can* talk to elliott in a loud/exaggerated/strong tone
of voice. i could even yell at him, if i wished. he couldn't
care less. as far as he's concerned, it's *all* great good
fun. however, since the arrival of harriet, we've both
learned to communicate with more restraint as well as to rely
more on non-verbal cues. shit happens and, as intelligent
beings, we make adjustments.


i don't shout at my dogs while training them and bupkis does
not equal a prong collar.


i had no reason to mention a prong collar to you as you
never asked me about them.


i'd like to see you teach leash manners to a dog like elliott
using "good dog!" haw!11!!!!!!!

how, exactly, do you plan to teach leash manners to a
dedicated puller who doesn't even know you exist, using
"praise"? be as specific as possible, please, because i'm
planning on getting a Siberian Husky in the not too distant
future and they are notorious pullers. i'd hate to think i
was abusing a dog when i could be using your obviously superior methods. TIA.


what doesn't? prong collars? of course not. i wouldn't have
used one if it did.

yes, and the dog could be abducted by aliens and used for
experimentation. there are certain risks associated with
getting out of bed in the morning.

for the record, i have never used a prong collar in teaching a
recall.

certainly not me.

--
shelly
http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette
http://cat-sidh.blogspot.com/
http://letters-to-esther.blogspot.com/ (updated 4/3/05)

You're right, it does sound kinda awkward. :-)


I walk my two dogs on a flexi with a splitter. Always. Never had any
problems with them (knock the wood). They always go to other dogs to
play with them, especially Clyde. I do ask the permission of the other
owner, if s/he objects I tell my dogs the other doggy doesn't want to
play, let's go, good dogs, and they come. A few days ago, Clyde almost
got me into trouble, though. He wanted to run after a kitten (his low
prey drive, you know!) and I told him "It's a good kitty, good boy!"
and you know what my good boy did? Went to the kitten and started to
lick him. I said, "Oh God, not again! Let's go, good boy, before it's
too late". It's how we got the first (and, hopefully, the last) two
cats we have now: Clyde started to lick them, and they followed him
everywhere. To this day.


And many thanks to you, Melinda, for reading my boring stuff the minute
it is posted. :-)

Lucy

shore

MORE SMART! LESS IDIOTIC, PLEASE!!

Many thanks.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - shore@panix.com

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

shelly

no kidding. i assume you haven't a clue how dangerous that
is. or maybe you just don't care?

--
shelly
http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette
http://cat-sidh.blogspot.com/
http://letters-to-esther.blogspot.com/ (updated 4/3/05)

shelly

the thought of someone who is ignorant or uncaring enough to
yoke two dogs to the same Flexi, lecturing others about their
tool usage, is, um, well, i can't quite find the word for it,
but i assure you that it is, indeed, *something*. quite.


don't hold your breath.

--
shelly
http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette
http://cat-sidh.blogspot.com/
http://letters-to-esther.blogspot.com/ (updated 4/3/05)

shore

Recently, on something I remember being embarrassed to watch
so it was either a reality show (yay, Uchenna and Joyce!) or
C-SPAN (yay, um, um, um, oh forget it), someone told a story
about a guy falling off the Empire State Building and as he
passed the 28th floor someone called out the window "How's
it going?" to which the guy responded "Just fine, so far".
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - shore@panix.com

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

shelly

wasn't that a relief? i was sick at the thought that they might not win.

ha!

--
shelly
http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette
http://cat-sidh.blogspot.com/
http://letters-to-esther.blogspot.com/ (updated 4/3/05)

marcel beaudoin

Assuming that you actually wrote what happens above, you are giving proof
that praising unacceptable behaviour doesn't work. (Or at least it doesn't
when you apply it)

If it worked, your post would have looked like this: Modified quote:

--
Marcel and Moogli
http://mudbunny.blogspot.com/