the puppy wizard

HOWEDY susan,

You mean, compared to shocking and pinching
and twisting their body parts as you do today?

That so?

You HURT your dogs.

And you LIE abHOWET it.

susan fraser On The Force Fetch =
Not For People With Pacemakers Or Weak Stomachs
Date: 2000-10-13 18:31:58 PST

Hello People,

This is perhaps the most disgusting defense of hurting
dogs I've ever seen, comparable ONLY to wm koehler
and lyingfrosty dahl... Be sure to read susan on "bonding," below...
"Susan Fraser" <chinchuba@aol.comdog> wrote in message
news:20001013010829.03194.00001472@ng-ch1.aol.com...

Hello susan,

I've always thought you were strictly for the birds. Here's
your forced fetch defencse. Made me sick the first time
I read it, and did the same as I repost it today. Enjoy
having a close look at your disgusting mentality in the
light of sensible thinking. Competent dog trainers do
not hurt dogs to train them.

Hello People,

Here's a discussion you will enjoy:

Hello again, Susan,

Jerry writes:

I read your original post with extreme disgust and disbelief.
I knew that you had been lying about your abusiveness from
the beginning. I'll check the record, but I think you might have
just earned your lying title with me.

You'll be among the first to know.

There are no lines in the sand or shades of gray when we are
talking about human decency and the ability to distinguish
right from wrong. There are no degrees of acceptable fear,
force, or punishment. They are not subjective to the
individuals perception. If I gently slapped my wife, I'd be in
jail just as fast as if I'd punched her out or shot at her.
The pain that we might accept in play is not a measure of the
pain tolerance that we have for pain inflicted due to
inconsideration, neglect, abuse, or punishment.

When I get bit by a vicious dog, the pain is less than being
growled at by a dog who loves me, it's more painful to be
rejected by a loved one than to be beaten by a total stranger.

You'd better get your value judgments re thunk. You are
missing the boat. You are complicating your work. You are
making your dog's life tougher than it should be.

You don't say tongue in cheek. And I don't believe you. And
you are throwing a red herring. Don't disrespect our
intelligence like that, it makes you look shabby, like fred
hassen of "sit means sit.".


One of "those" people? Like the regulars here who ordinarily
misquote and intentionally misinterpret information that they
do not agree with, because it invalidates their misconceptions
and makes them look like morons? Or the ones like yourself,
that deceive and try to desensitize people to their atrocities?


I read it and wretched. You use the same techniques Koehler
does to desensitize, rationalize, and convince people to
disregard their G-d given senses and intellect. It ain't gonna
fly with me, I've been working around you pigs all my life,
and I know every trick in the book, and you ain't gittin away
withit any longer, not here anyway... Not any more...


You don't get anything but abuse, fear, force, violence. Get
some mental health treatment. You are sick, and disgusting.
You sound like lyingdogDUMMY and wm. koehler.


I'd rather not have to read that crap again. It gives me agita.

And I don't think much of it at all, at least not without much profanity.


HELLO! Youre talking about HURTING the dog to FORCE IT to work...


That is the most annoying trash that I've ever read. I can't
believe lyingfrosty dahl expects anybody to buy her insane
rationalization of her particularly disgusting approach.
And she'll defend it right up to and including whipping the
dog to get a good start!

Unf+++ingbelieveable.

It's absolutely incredulous. Totally reprehensible. Thoroughly
disgusting. Maniacally insane. Nauseatingly putrid. Hopelessly
retarded.

Criminally insane!

And that's not even close to HOWE I REALLY feel about it.


Yes. In a crowd of dog abusers, you won't stand out...

No, you have to adapt you mentality to a level that is
acceptable in decent society. The Army does not adapt
the method to the individual, they have a method that
works on 98% of everyone, and they spend a very
limited amount of time on special remedial cases.

If they don't straighten them out in a month or so, they
can them as being undesirable.

And their methods work without force, or pain, or physical
contact of any kind. Corporal punishment in the military is
a criminal offense, and is vigorously prosecuted.


Like our lyingfrosty dahl, "but will squeal, thrash around,
and direct their efforts to escaping the ear pinch pinch it's
ear until resisting your will fades in importance.

even get a studded collar and pinch the ear against that if
the dog still does not open its mouth, get out the shotshell.
Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and the collar,
even the buckle on the collar.

Persist!

Eventually, the dog will give in" LIKE THAT???


Why? To teach a bird dog to get a birdie? The easiest thing in
the world for a Retriever Dog to do? And you gotta make a
science project out of it?

What the hell's the matter with just teaching the dog to enjoy it,
and properly train him to the degree of excellence you require?

You don't know HOWE, that's why.

You're a freaking idiot. And a SADIST.


MORE lyingfrosty dahl:

"Immediately tap the dog on the hindquarters with the
stick. Repeat "fetch" and pinch the ear all the way to the
dummy. even get a studded collar and pinch the ear against
that. if the dog still does not open its mouth, get out the
shotshell.

Try pinching the ear between the metal casing
and the collar, even the buckle on the collar."

Very impressive. You've studied all the wrong things, haven't
you? And you appreciate these "advanced" training techniques?

And you are proud of it. You should be embarrassed to death.


You sound like frantik fraud die telling us he'll turn the
power off and push the button, and you won't feel anything.

Like fraud die, your argument only makes you look highly
ignorant, terribly abusive, and extremely insensitive and
uncaring.

I take offense to your toxic logic.

But, you got me curious, and I did that. I reached over just
now and patted my shadow, and gently took her ear, and just
pinched ever so slightly. She expressed discontent. I patted
her again, and took her ear again, and applied the slightest
pressure, and she looked at me with mistrust.

Is that what you like?

I'd never do something like that to a dog.

Your attempt to sugar coat this kind of insanity is pathetic.
Smacks of koehler, he was a master sadist.

What the hell is that supposed to mean? You're tripping.

THERE ARE NO DEGREES OF RIGHT OR WRONG.

You are sadistic.

You are a control freak. You'd get better control if you
weren't so fearful of losing control. It's complicated, but
it's all in my manual. Most dog training issues center
around control, and that is why you people are having
a hard time understanding the idea that when you try to
force control, you actually lose control.

You are defeating your own purpose, but you aren't smart
enough to realize that.

You mean when the dog is old enough to reject you, because
he feels like not responding to you because you aren't meaningful
enough anymore, because of your prior force and abuse, and that
you've failed to properly train him, because you have not
developed
the proper bond, because you are trying to dominate, rather than
teach... So now you have to fight about it.

I've been through that all my life with losers like you. I
know that you will never understand till you ruin a dog,
and he turns on you and you end up having to kill him.

I'm sure you've never had a dog that turned on you, have
you? I'm sure that you've never had to hang a dog you were
training, have you? I'm sure you wouldn't lie about that,
would you?

Notice, I've never asked fraud die those questions,
because I know the answers, and he won't answer the
questions, and I don't want to provoke him to lie. Although
he's not entirely truthful, I haven't seen him blatantly
lying, just being blatantly stupid. There's no crime in that.

You, on the other hand, are not blatantly stupid. You are
subtly stupid, and don't know it, or else you'd stop being stupid.

You can't because you are satisfied being stupid and abusive.
You are comfortable stinking like a pig. And being deceitful
about it to defend your abuse.


And you are a control freak, with no understanding of
appropriate methods of attaining your goals. If you were
a competent trainer, you wouldn't need abuse your dogs to
train them. Would you?

I train far more intricate and far more risky behaviors,
without ever using any of the force or brutality you insist
is necessary. I get vicious behavior form gentle loving dogs,
and gentle behavior from vicious dogs, because of their desire
to protect their loved ones, not through beating it into them

DOESN'T THAT SOUND LIKE DOUBLE TALK????


INDEED. THAT'S WHY I'M HERE...

Excuses and extenuating situations do not mitigate your lack
of human decency and compassion... You are not impressing me at all.

Did you stick them down her throat to choke her out of
mouthing like cindymooron and lyingdogDUMMY enjoy?


THAT'S WHAT IT SOUNDS LIKE. NO WONDER
YOU NOW NEED TO BRUTALIZE HER TO PICK
UP A RETRIEVE ARTICLE.


I've never done that. And you don't pinch under their tongue
or stick you fingers down their throat to choke them like
lyingdogDUMMY and cindymooron???

Sounds like more bull sit. Next time you'll be telling us HOWE
you do pinch under their tongue just a little, and maybe stuff
your fingers down their throats to choke them, just a little,
but only when absolutely necessary, and just for the dog's own good, huh?


Because if she didn't, you'd twist and pinch her body parts.


You mean old enough to learn EVERYTHING. You're a FOOL.

YES. THE PINCHING AND TWISTING WAS FOR FUN...

FOR THE FUN PART OF THE TRAINING???

Sure, get comfortable before settling down to enjoy torturing
you dog... Do you enjoy doing these things, like pinching ears
and twisting toes? There is absolutely no way to justify that
kind of behavior to normal, decent, intelligent, caring
people.

You couldn't possibly enjoy doing that, so why continue?

PERHAPS I'M WRONG...

I don't do things to dogs that I don't enjoy doing, why do
you? It just does not make any sense.


MILDLY??? HURTING THE DOG IS SUPPOSED TO HURT.

One of us is a LIAR.


Mildly? That's a little suspicious to me. Especially where you
admit that more force may be "necessary." And lets not forget
the stick and spikes.

I think you are jerking us off, and I don't appreciate it.

As I said, it violates the dog's trust in you. They disrespect
you for that. The dog does not enjoy working under those
conditions.

It makes them think you are a psycho.

I think you are a psycho.

Decent people will think you are a psycho.

But mostly, the only one that counts is your dog, who is
learning to mistrust you because he KNOWS that you are a psycho.

And that makes it all better?

If I ever hit my wife, there would be no way to make it
better, except through divorce and her seeing me end up in
jail. You've got some SERIOUS mental problems, if you can't figure that out.


WILLINGLY??? You've been abusing this dog for MONTHS!

You've been doing something wrong all your life, and you are
used to it. You aren't going to change now, you'll continue
doing something wrong, and teach it to others.

That's the only reason I'm here, not for the benefit of the
hopelessly, criminally insane "trainers" we've got, but to let
new people see your insanity and understand the illness that
you people are tormented by, so that they can avoid ending up
like you filthy, lying, stinking, pigs.

By "doing something wrong," you mean not pinching hard
enough, or long enough. You are only fooling yourself. Do
you think everyone is as stupid, uncaring, insensitive, and
ignorant as yourself and your chump chums here?

Do you think your DOG is as stupid as you and your chump chums
here?

I give the dog more credit for intelligence than the whole
bunch of you pigs put together.

She's gonna love this, I'll bet.

Mild pinch? Why mild? That flies in the face of everything
koehler teaches. But you may be doing something wrong.
And, you got your thumb tacks ready. And your fryolator
sadoelectroshock collar, don't you?

You are making a worse impression than I could ever create,
as an object lesson in cruelty.

And you are proud of that... And your dog loves and respects
you for that? And looks forward to more of the same, doesn't
she? I got some news for you, ____..., All that tail wagging
and excitement when they see youcoming to torture them is
not anticipation of enjoying working with and abusive @$$hole
like yourself. It is TERROR from nervousness, stress, and
anxiety that you created, not pleasure at going to work for
you.

You are a mental case.


That's NICE of you!

Sounds brilliant. Take a step forward and take this... and
I'll reward you with successive approximations of the ideal shtupping.


Sounds intricately complicated, getting a Retriever Dog to
pick something up off the floor. Took me five minutes to
teach my shep to pick up what I tell her to.

The reason it's a problem for you, is because you've
choked the dog out of mouthing when she was little...

OR ELSE WHAT??? IF your dog done something wrong,
you go back to more pain, that's what...


More abuse? Of course, that's all you understand.


Of course, it's too gruesome to print here. Don't apologize,
we wouldn't care to hear any more of that kind of garbage talk.

Much longer that it would take if you simply taught the dog to
enjoy working and trained the dog properly, instead of abusing
it.

I've never had a dog in training for a few months, because my
dogs are motivated to work, and they enjoy it, even without the
"advanced" pinching and twisting and choking and shocking.

All the good stuff my dogs miss...


Far too much time, and that's only because you are using force
and consequently mishandling your dogs.

"ADVANCED?" You are nuts. You are no better than
lyingdogDUMMY or lyinglynn, or lyingfrosty dahy, or
cindymooreon, you just clean it up a little better, and
make HURTIN DOGS sound charming.

It isn't, and people are smartening up, and they are not being
fooled by your attempted deception, now that I'm here. Before,
you could make sense out of your abuse, and get support from
the other abusive pigs here, because there wasn't anyone that
could dispute you screwballs. But that's changing, and you ain't
gittin away with it any longer.

That's why I'm here.


You are truly sickening. You are a disgusting pig. A vile,
vicious, ignorant, disgusting, filthy, rotten, lousy, psychotic,
rabid, dog abusing, pig.


You never will, handling them like that. They don't want
to get to know you any better either. And likewise for any
decent human being. But that's the only reason I'm here,
because you @$$holes are such disgusting pigs, it's
intolerable, and I'm going to make sure everybody
understands exactly what the hell is going on here, and
people like you will soon not be tolerated any longer.

Correct. That's why I teach an instant response to the come
command on the first lesson. It takes about one hour, and
everything else is downhill from there... And I don't pinch or
shock or inflict any pain.


With violence? Fear? Force? Intimidation?

Because of mistrust and contempt? You are talking out of both
sides of your mouth at once. You learned from Koehler. You
too, are a master of deception and pain.


You could be confined in a mental institution for talking like
that.


And you use just enough pain to make the dog love it, and
love working, and love working for you? He respects you for
punishing and hurting him?

Nobody reading your post is going to respect you for
acting like that.

You are not being entirely truthful, not with us, and not with
yourself. You have to justify yourself, because even to
yourself, you must be disgusting.


Because they toss lunch when they hear their dogs scream?
Or because they realize that they've been misled by some
brilliant sounding abusive pig? Sounds like they have more
brains than you and your chump chums here.


Thanks. I've got a bond for you I'd like put to you once or
twice...

No, it's entirely insane and disgusting. And the most
despicable part of it is, that you could do a better job if
you used intelligence instead of force, to motivate that dog
to want to work. My dogs will do anything I ask, without ever
being brutalized.

You really stink out loud.

Your post her was particularly annoying. Get help. You are a
mental case like lyingdogDUMMY and lyingfrosty dahl and
cindymooreon.

Stay away from live animals.


Yours for pleasure in pain, Jerry "Marquis de Sade," Howe.

eeng

Please f****ve the top posting.

It absolutely disgusts me to agree with Puppy Wizard about anything
given his abusive diatribes and nature, but I have to agree with him
here (hell, even a broken clock is right twice a day)

Any time the word "force" appears in reference to training any animal,
abuse is occurring. Proper training occurs only when you are able to
find a natural response to stimuli and can encourage it with positive
reinforcement. Always give an animal its due. Let's keep it
perfectly clear that "stimuli" means the activity or event that you
want a response to. Stimuli does not come at the end of a cattle
prod, choke chain, or any abusive behavior.

Regarding hunting dogs. I won't make any value judgements one way or
the other however without fail, every hunter I know that uses dogs
(and I know literally hundreds of them) cherishes those dogs and
treats them like royalty and family. They are pampered, they are
loved, and they know it. Those dogs get the best treatment, the best
food, and are trained with nothing but love and respect. Respect is
the operative concept. Except for one case in which I gladly sent the
man to jail for abuse, no hunting dog that I know of (among my
circles) has ever even seen a hand lifted in anger or ever heard a
harsh word in their direction. A dog trained that way will leap to
respond to new training because he totally trusts his human and wants
to work with him, not for him. Just look at any animal (not just
dogs) that was trained with respect, and you'll see an animal that
WANTS to learn new things. You can actually see those little brains
working to understand the new concepts and they are happy to do so.

Anyone who advocates any method of training that involves the forcing
of wills, is a bite waiting to happen and I for one have no qualms
about sending those type of people to jail for animal abuse. I've
done it before, I'll do it again....with pride.

Puppy Wizard may have ZERO people skills and his rants may turn my
stomach and yes, even makes me question whether someone that vile
actually can work with an animal at all, but on one issue he is
absolutely correct..... force training is wrong. There is no time
when it is right, and anyone who advocates it is being abusive to
his/her animal.

Remember the REAL Golden Rule: Do NOT do unto others (includes
animals) what you would NOT have them do to you.

EEng

c. macklin

Thank you so much for your enlightening post, it will make a great
contribution to the compost for my roses.

C.M.

northern skies labs

You too are an idiot. Welcome to my killfile.

Plonk

jokerpit

and your the genius of the groups huh...


: You too are an idiot. Welcome to my killfile.
: : Plonk : :
: "EEng" <unmaileeng@budget.net> wrote in message : newsh1opvo9qjeumf0v95gsurud908dr7e0p6@4ax.com...
: > Please f****ve the top posting.
: >
: > It absolutely disgusts me to agree with Puppy Wizard about anything
: > given his abusive diatribes and nature, but I have to agree with him
: > here (hell, even a broken clock is right twice a day)
: >
: > Any time the word "force" appears in reference to training any animal,
: > abuse is occurring. Proper training occurs only when you are able to
: > find a natural response to stimuli and can encourage it with positive
: > reinforcement. Always give an animal its due. Let's keep it
: > perfectly clear that "stimuli" means the activity or event that you
: > want a response to. Stimuli does not come at the end of a cattle
: > prod, choke chain, or any abusive behavior.
: >
: > Regarding hunting dogs. I won't make any value judgements one way or
: > the other however without fail, every hunter I know that uses dogs
: > (and I know literally hundreds of them) cherishes those dogs and
: > treats them like royalty and family. They are pampered, they are
: > loved, and they know it. Those dogs get the best treatment, the best
: > food, and are trained with nothing but love and respect. Respect is
: > the operative concept. Except for one case in which I gladly sent the
: > man to jail for abuse, no hunting dog that I know of (among my
: > circles) has ever even seen a hand lifted in anger or ever heard a
: > harsh word in their direction. A dog trained that way will leap to
: > respond to new training because he totally trusts his human and wants
: > to work with him, not for him. Just look at any animal (not just
: > dogs) that was trained with respect, and you'll see an animal that
: > WANTS to learn new things. You can actually see those little brains
: > working to understand the new concepts and they are happy to do so.
: >
: > Anyone who advocates any method of training that involves the forcing
: > of wills, is a bite waiting to happen and I for one have no qualms
: > about sending those type of people to jail for animal abuse. I've
: > done it before, I'll do it again....with pride.
: >
: > Puppy Wizard may have ZERO people skills and his rants may turn my
: > stomach and yes, even makes me question whether someone that vile
: > actually can work with an animal at all, but on one issue he is
: > absolutely correct..... force training is wrong. There is no time
: > when it is right, and anyone who advocates it is being abusive to
: > his/her animal.
: >
: > Remember the REAL Golden Rule: Do NOT do unto others (includes
: > animals) what you would NOT have them do to you.
: >
: > EEng
: >
: >
: >
: > On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 11:09:33 GMT, "The Puppy Wizard"
: > <ThePuppyWizard@earthlink.net> wrote:
: >
: > >HOWEDY susan,
: > >
: > >"Susan Fraser" <chinchuba@aol.comdog> wrote in message
: > >news:20031025225055.22368.00000157@mb-m02.aol.com...
: > >
: > >> That said, my pointer when I grew up lived outside,
: > >> roamed free, had a couple of sire-unknown litters,
: > >> got very little medical attention, and we took her out
: > >> to hunt in the trunk of the car.
: > >>
: > >> But she was a cherished member of the family
: > >
: > >INDEED...
: > >
: > >> we felt we treated her royally.
: > >
: > >You mean, compared to shocking and pinching
: > >and twisting their body parts as you do today?
: > >
: > >> It's hard for me to view her in light of the way I
: > >> treat my dogs now.
: > >
: > >That so?
: > >
: > >You HURT your dogs.
: > >
: > >And you LIE abHOWET it.
: > >
: > >susan fraser On The Force Fetch =
: > >Not For People With Pacemakers Or Weak Stomachs
: > >Date: 2000-10-13 18:31:58 PST
: > >
: > >Hello People,
: > >
: > >This is perhaps the most disgusting defense of hurting
: > >dogs I've ever seen, comparable ONLY to wm koehler
: > >and lyingfrosty dahl... Be sure to read susan on "bonding,"
: > >below...
: > >
: > >"Susan Fraser" <chinchuba@aol.comdog> wrote in message
: > >news:20001013010829.03194.00001472@ng-ch1.aol.com...
: > >
: > >Hello susan,
: > >
: > >I've always thought you were strictly for the birds. Here's
: > >your forced fetch defencse. Made me sick the first time
: > >I read it, and did the same as I repost it today. Enjoy
: > >having a close look at your disgusting mentality in the
: > >light of sensible thinking. Competent dog trainers do
: > >not hurt dogs to train them.
: > >
: > >Hello People,
: > >
: > >Here's a discussion you will enjoy:
: > >
: > >> Susan Fraser wrote:
: > >
: > >Hello again, Susan,
: > >
: > >> >Master of her domain. And this is with the most tractable
: > >> >dog she 's ever seen? Sorta like the parents who punish
: > >> >their kids for bringing home straight"A's"?
: > >>
: > >> Just curious, tricia. Did you read my original description
: > >> or are you just responding to me saying things like
: > >> "stringing the dog up" and "physical manipulation" to
: > >> describe it?
: > >
: > >Jerry writes:
: > >
: > >I read your original post with extreme disgust and disbelief.
: > >I knew that you had been lying about your abusiveness from
: > >the beginning. I'll check the record, but I think you might have
: > >just earned your lying title with me.
: > >
: > >You'll be among the first to know.
: > >
: > >> Because that's how(e) these lines get drawn in the sand. I
: > >> described how I put the dog on a table wearing a flat collar
: > >> attatched to a cable running over it > to keep the dog from
: > >> falling/jumping off. Then I 'tongue in cheek' referred to
: > >> how(e) some people would call this "stringing the dog up",
: > >> etc.
: > >
: > >There are no lines in the sand or shades of gray when we are
: > >talking about human decency and the ability to distinguish
: > >right from wrong. There are no degrees of acceptable fear,
: > >force, or punishment. They are not subjective to the
: > >individuals perception. If I gently slapped my wife, I'd be in
: > >jail just as fast as if I'd punched her out or shot at her.
: > >The pain that we might accept in play is not a measure of the
: > >pain tolerance that we have for pain inflicted due to
: > >inconsideration, neglect, abuse, or punishment.
: > >
: > >When I get bit by a vicious dog, the pain is less than being
: > >growled at by a dog who loves me, it's more painful to be
: > >rejected by a loved one than to be beaten by a total stranger.
: > >
: > >You'd better get your value judgments re thunk. You are
: > >missing the boat. You are complicating your work. You are
: > >making your dog's life tougher than it should be.
: > >
: > >You don't say tongue in cheek. And I don't believe you. And
: > >you are throwing a red herring. Don't disrespect our
: > >intelligence like that, it makes you look shabby, like fred
: > >hassen of "sit means sit.".
: > >
: > >> Are you one of those people? I didn't think so.
: > >
: > >One of "those" people? Like the regulars here who ordinarily
: > >misquote and intentionally misinterpret information that they
: > >do not agree with, because it invalidates their misconceptions
: > >and makes them look like morons? Or the ones like yourself,
: > >that deceive and try to desensitize people to their
: > >atrocities?
: > >
: > >> IOW, are you responding to the actual description, or
: > >> assuming the worst from a 2nd hand reference made about
: > >> something you didn't originally read?
: > >
: > >I read it and wretched. You use the same techniques Koehler
: > >does to desensitize, rationalize, and convince people to
: > >disregard their G-d given senses and intellect. It ain't gonna
: > >fly with me, I've been working around you pigs all my life,
: > >and I know every trick in the book, and you ain't gittin away
: > >withit any longer, not here anyway... Not any more...
: > >
: > >> If the former, then you'll need to explain how what I
: > >> actually did is like punishing the kid for straight "A's". I
: > >> don't get the ****ogy.
: > >
: > >You don't get anything but abuse, fear, force, violence. Get
: > >some mental health treatment. You are sick, and disgusting.
: > >You sound like lyingdogDUMMY and wm. koehler.
: > >
: > >> If the latter, then let me know what you really think about
: > >> the method as described in this post (original force fetch
: > >> description follows):
: > >
: > >I'd rather not have to read that crap again. It gives me agita.
: > >
: > >And I don't think much of it at all, at least not without much
: > >profanity.
: > >
: > >> >> lyingfrosty dahl writes:
: > >> >> The enthusiastic, willing, cooperative response of the
: > >> >> force-fetched dog,
: > >
: > >HELLO! Youre talking about HURTING the dog to FORCE IT
: > >to work...
: > >
: > >> >> and its devotion to its trainer, are well-do***ented and
: > >> >> have been seen gain and again by participants in this
: > >> >> ng.
: > >
: > >> > susan writes: I'm sure you're right Amy - I'll read your
: > >> > method before judging.
: > >
: > >That is the most annoying trash that I've ever read. I can't
: > >believe lyingfrosty dahl expects anybody to buy her insane
: > >rationalization of her particularly disgusting approach.
: > >And she'll defend it right up to and including whipping the
: > >dog to get a good start!
: > >
: > >Unf+++ingbelieveable.
: > >
: > >It's absolutely incredulous. Totally reprehensible. Thoroughly
: > >disgusting. Maniacally insane. Nauseatingly putrid. Hopelessly
: > >retarded.
: > >
: > >Criminally insane!
: > >
: > >And that's not even close to HOWE I REALLY feel about it.
: > >
: > >> susan continues:
: > >> Marilyn, I can't speak for Amy, but I can say that there are
: > >> as many different methods for force fetching as there are
: > >> people who have done it, times the number of dogs they
: > >> have done it with.
: > >
: > >Yes. In a crowd of dog abusers, you won't stand out...
: > >
: > >> Try as you might, you have to adapt the method to the
: > >> individual.
: > >
: > >No, you have to adapt you mentality to a level that is
: > >acceptable in decent society. The Army does not adapt
: > >the method to the individual, they have a method that
: > >works on 98% of everyone, and they spend a very
: > >limited amount of time on special remedial cases.
: > >
: > >If they don't straighten them out in a month or so, they
: > >can them as being undesirable.
: > >
: > >And their methods work without force, or pain, or physical
: > >contact of any kind. Corporal punishment in the military is
: > >a criminal offense, and is vigorously prosecuted.
: > >
: > >> Among retriever enthusiasts, I personally know of people
: > >> who, on the one hand, want the dog's ear to start hurting
: > >> when he hears the word "fetch",
: > >
: > >Like our lyingfrosty dahl, "but will squeal, thrash around,
: > >and direct their efforts to escaping the ear pinch pinch it's
: > >ear until resisting your will fades in importance.
: > >
: > >even get a studded collar and pinch the ear against that if
: > >the dog still does not open its mouth, get out the shotshell.
: > >Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and the collar,
: > >even the buckle on the collar.
: > >
: > >Persist!
: > >
: > >Eventually, the dog will give in"
: > >
: > >LIKE THAT???
: > >
: > >> all the way to the other extreme of people who will wade
: > >> out as far as the tops of their boots (but no farther!!) to
: > >> get the bird the dog has dropped.
: > >
: > >Why? To teach a bird dog to get a birdie? The easiest thing in
: > >the world for a Retriever Dog to do? And you gotta make a
: > >science project out of it?
: > >
: > >What the hell's the matter with just teaching the dog to enjoy it,
: > >and properly train him to the degree of excellence you require?
: > >
: > >You don't know HOWE, that's why.
: > >
: > >You're a freaking idiot. And a SADIST.
: > >
: > >> There are also the extremes of using a thumb tack to
: > >> pinch the ear with, to finger pressure that's a good bit
: > >> milder than a vigorous ear massage.
: > >
: > >MORE lyingfrosty dahl:
: > >
: > >"Immediately tap the dog on the hindquarters with the
: > >stick. Repeat "fetch" and pinch the ear all the way to the
: > >dummy. even get a studded collar and pinch the ear against
: > >that. if the dog still does not open its mouth, get out the
: > >shotshell.
: > >
: > >Try pinching the ear between the metal casing
: > >and the collar, even the buckle on the collar."
: > >
: > >Very impressive. You've studied all the wrong things, haven't
: > >you? And you appreciate these "advanced" training techniques?
: > >
: > >And you are proud of it. You should be embarrassed to death.
: > >
: > >> (Right now, pinch your own earlobe with the fleshy ball of
: > >> your thumb and forefinger -no nail - you really can't pinch
: > >> hard enough to hurt, now, can you?)
: > >
: > >You sound like frantik fraud die telling us he'll turn the
: > >power off and push the button, and you won't feel anything.
: > >
: > >Like fraud die, your argument only makes you look highly
: > >ignorant, terribly abusive, and extremely insensitive and
: > >uncaring.
: > >
: > >I take offense to your toxic logic.
: > >
: > >But, you got me curious, and I did that. I reached over just
: > >now and patted my shadow, and gently took her ear, and just
: > >pinched ever so slightly. She expressed discontent. I patted
: > >her again, and took her ear again, and applied the slightest
: > >pressure, and she looked at me with mistrust.
: > >
: > >Is that what you like?
: > >
: > >I'd never do something like that to a dog.
: > >
: > >Your attempt to sugar coat this kind of insanity is pathetic.
: > >Smacks of koehler, he was a master sadist.
: > >
: > >> IMO, the point in the exercise is not the degree of force
: > >> but the degree of control.
: > >
: > >What the hell is that supposed to mean? You're tripping.
: > >
: > >THERE ARE NO DEGREES OF RIGHT OR WRONG.
: > >
: > >You are sadistic.
: > >
: > >You are a control freak. You'd get better control if you
: > >weren't so fearful of losing control. It's complicated, but
: > >it's all in my manual. Most dog training issues center
: > >around control, and that is why you people are having
: > >a hard time understanding the idea that when you try to
: > >force control, you actually lose control.
: > >
: > >You are defeating your own purpose, but you aren't smart
: > >enough to realize that.
: > >
: > >> FF-ing is often when a pup grows up and starts to realize
: > >> that she can do things the easy way or the hard way,
: > >
: > >You mean when the dog is old enough to reject you, because
: > >he feels like not responding to you because you aren't meaningful
: > >enough anymore, because of your prior force and abuse, and that
: > >you've failed to properly train him, because you have not
: > >developed
: > >the proper bond, because you are trying to dominate, rather than
: > >teach... So now you have to fight about it.
: > >
: > >I've been through that all my life with losers like you. I
: > >know that you will never understand till you ruin a dog,
: > >and he turns on you and you end up having to kill him.
: > >
: > >I'm sure you've never had a dog that turned on you, have
: > >you? I'm sure that you've never had to hang a dog you were
: > >training, have you? I'm sure you wouldn't lie about that,
: > >would you?
: > >
: > >Notice, I've never asked fraud die those questions,
: > >because I know the answers, and he won't answer the
: > >questions, and I don't want to provoke him to lie. Although
: > >he's not entirely truthful, I haven't seen him blatantly
: > >lying, just being blatantly stupid. There's no crime in that.
: > >
: > >You, on the other hand, are not blatantly stupid. You are
: > >subtly stupid, and don't know it, or else you'd stop being stupid.
: > >
: > >You can't because you are satisfied being stupid and abusive.
: > >You are comfortable stinking like a pig. And being deceitful
: > >about it to defend your abuse.
: > >
: > >> but the bottom line is that it's going to be MY way. Period.
: > >> And for that lesson to sink in it is imperative that I DO
: > >> have control of the situation.
: > >
: > >And you are a control freak, with no understanding of
: > >appropriate methods of attaining your goals. If you were
: > >a competent trainer, you wouldn't need abuse your dogs to
: > >train them. Would you?
: > >
: > >I train far more intricate and far more risky behaviors,
: > >without ever using any of the force or brutality you insist
: > >is necessary. I get vicious behavior form gentle loving dogs,
: > >and gentle behavior from vicious dogs, because of their desire
: > >to protect their loved ones, not through beating it into them
: > >
: > >> So, I'll post *my* method, Marilyn, with the disclaimer that
: > >> I've never done it exactly this way before and never will
: > >> again, and havenever heard of anyone else doing it exactly
: > >> like this either.
: > >
: > >DOESN'T THAT SOUND LIKE DOUBLE TALK????
: > >
: > >> But it is the combination of a unique dog, a unique
: > >> situation, and a lot of new ideas I've gotten from places
: > >> like this newsgroup.
: > >
: > >INDEED. THAT'S WHY I'M HERE...
: > >
: > >Excuses and extenuating situations do not mitigate your lack
: > >of human decency and compassion... You are not impressing
: > >me at all.
: > >
: > >> When the pup came to me at 10 weeks, I began to teach
: > >> her to let me put my fingers in her mouth.
: > >
: > >Did you stick them down her throat to choke her out of
: > >mouthing like cindymooron and lyingdogDUMMY enjoy?
: > >
: > >> When she settled without mouthing for just a moment,
: > >
: > >THAT'S WHAT IT SOUNDS LIKE. NO WONDER
: > >YOU NOW NEED TO BRUTALIZE HER TO PICK
: > >UP A RETRIEVE ARTICLE.
: > >
: > >> I took them out and praised or gave a treat. Eventually, I
: > >> could lay two fingers across her tongue behind her canines
: > >> for a few seconds and she would settle" quietly.
: > >
: > >I've never done that. And you don't pinch under their tongue
: > >or stick you fingers down their throat to choke them like
: > >lyingdogDUMMY and cindymooron???
: > >
: > >Sounds like more bull sit. Next time you'll be telling us HOWE
: > >you do pinch under their tongue just a little, and maybe stuff
: > >your fingers down their throats to choke them, just a little,
: > >but only when absolutely necessary, and just for the dog's own
: > >good, huh?
: > >
: > >> Then I started to slip a rag-covered dowel in place. When I
: > >> wanted her to release it, I would hold out a treat and say "
: > >> drop", holding the dowel steady so that she had to back off
: > >> of it deliberately. Then it was just a matter of extending
: > >> the time until the "drop".
: > >>
: > >> I was still gently placing the object in the dog's mouth,
: > >> but she was reliable to hold it even if I moved away.
: > >> (I think that having to concentrate on the hold
: > >
: > >Because if she didn't, you'd twist and pinch her body parts.
: > >
: > >> helped teach her "stay", too!) And I put her on a variable
: > >> reinforcement schedule so that she only got a treat
: > >> occasionally.
: > >>
: > >> By this time, she was about 4 months old.
: > >
: > >You mean old enough to learn EVERYTHING. You're a FOOL.
: > >
: > >> As her obedience progressed, "hold" and "drop" were part of
: > >> the routine (while standing, while heeling, while comming,
: > >> etc.) And somewhere in here, I could throw something for her
: > >> (she was a natural retriever)
: > >
: > >YES. THE PINCHING AND TWISTING WAS FOR FUN...
: > >
: > >> so that, if reminded to "hold" on her way back toward me,
: > >> she would sit nicely with the object and wait for me to tell
: > >> her "drop". Then at about 5-6 months she teethed, and the
: > >> only mouth work I did was to massage her gums. When all her
: > >> new teeth were settled, we reviewed the "hold" and "drop"
: > >> and then I put her on the table.
: > >
: > >FOR THE FUN PART OF THE TRAINING???
: > >
: > >> The table is to make it easier on my back as well as to
: > >> stack the odds in my favor on controlling the situation.
: > >
: > >Sure, get comfortable before settling down to enjoy torturing
: > >you dog... Do you enjoy doing these things, like pinching ears
: > >and twisting toes? There is absolutely no way to justify that
: > >kind of behavior to normal, decent, intelligent, caring
: > >people.
: > >
: > >You couldn't possibly enjoy doing that, so why continue?
: > >
: > >PERHAPS I'M WRONG...
: > >
: > >I don't do things to dogs that I don't enjoy doing, why do
: > >you? It just does not make any sense.
: > >
: > >> It's long and narrow with a cable over it. She has on a flat
: > >> collar with a rope to a pulley on the cable. She first
: > >> learns to run up and down the table (treats at the other end
: > >> help). Then we review all the hold and drop lessons
: > >> (sitting, standing, running up and down, etc).
: > >>
: > >> During this process, I have her on my left with my left
: > >> hand, palm up, under the collar. I put her right ear flap
: > >> between the fleshy ball of my finger and thumb, and if she
: > >> spits the object out (I'm still using the dowel) I pinch
: > >> them together mildly
: > >
: > >MILDLY??? HURTING THE DOG IS SUPPOSED TO HURT.
: > >
: > >One of us is a LIAR.
: > >
: > >> for as long as it takes me to pick upt the dowel with my
: > >> other hand and put it back in her mouth. (The collar grip
: > >> keeps her from pulling the ear away, making it JUST the mild
: > >> pinch you practiced on your own ear, and not a tug or jerk
: > >> on the ear flap.)
: > >
: > >Mildly? That's a little suspicious to me. Especially where you
: > >admit that more force may be "necessary." And lets not forget
: > >the stick and spikes.
: > >
: > >I think you are jerking us off, and I don't appreciate it.
: > >
: > >As I said, it violates the dog's trust in you. They disrespect
: > >you for that. The dog does not enjoy working under those
: > >conditions.
: > >
: > >It makes them think you are a psycho.
: > >
: > >I think you are a psycho.
: > >
: > >Decent people will think you are a psycho.
: > >
: > >But mostly, the only one that counts is your dog, who is
: > >learning to mistrust you because he KNOWS that you are a
: > >psycho.
: > >
: > >> I praise quietly or intermittently reward with a treat on
: > >> the drop".
: > >
: > >And that makes it all better?
: > >
: > >If I ever hit my wife, there would be no way to make it
: > >better, except through divorce and her seeing me end up in
: > >jail. You've got some SERIOUS mental problems, if you can't
: > >figure that out.
: > >
: > >> I do this with a wide assortment of objects that vary in
: > >> texture weight, etc.
: > >>
: > >> THEN comes the "fetch". All this time, I have been placing
: > >> the object in the dog's mouth. And by now, she's
: > >> anticipating it and at least opening her mouth
: > >> willingly (or I'm doing something wrong...)
: > >
: > >WILLINGLY??? You've been abusing this dog for MONTHS!
: > >
: > >You've been doing something wrong all your life, and you are
: > >used to it. You aren't going to change now, you'll continue
: > >doing something wrong, and teach it to others.
: > >
: > >That's the only reason I'm here, not for the benefit of the
: > >hopelessly, criminally insane "trainers" we've got, but to let
: > >new people see your insanity and understand the illness that
: > >you people are tormented by, so that they can avoid ending up
: > >like you filthy, lying, stinking, pigs.
: > >
: > >By "doing something wrong," you mean not pinching hard
: > >enough, or long enough. You are only fooling yourself. Do
: > >you think everyone is as stupid, uncaring, insensitive, and
: > >ignorant as yourself and your chump chums here?
: > >
: > >Do you think your DOG is as stupid as you and your chump chums
: > >here?
: > >
: > >I give the dog more credit for intelligence than the whole
: > >bunch of you pigs put together.
: > >
: > >> Now I have to get her to *reach* for it (if she's not
: > >> already).
: > >
: > >She's gonna love this, I'll bet.
: > >
: > >> I hold out the object and push her head forward toward it
: > >> while applying the mild pinch.
: > >
: > >Mild pinch? Why mild? That flies in the face of everything
: > >koehler teaches. But you may be doing something wrong.
: > >And, you got your thumb tacks ready. And your fryolator
: > >sadoelectroshock collar, don't you?
: > >
: > >You are making a worse impression than I could ever create,
: > >as an object lesson in cruelty.
: > >
: > >And you are proud of that... And your dog loves and respects
: > >you for that? And looks forward to more of the same, doesn't
: > >she? I got some news for you, ____..., All that tail wagging
: > >and excitement when they see youcoming to torture them is
: > >not anticipation of enjoying working with and abusive @$$hole
: > >like yourself. It is TERROR from nervousness, stress, and
: > >anxiety that you created, not pleasure at going to work for
: > >you.
: > >
: > >You are a mental case.
: > >
: > >> The INSTANT that she responds in any way (even if it's not a
: > >> complete fetch but just opening the mouth a bit or leaning
: > >> forward to touch it with her nose) I release the pinch.
: > >
: > >That's NICE of you!
: > >
: > >> This then becomes a shaping exercise, rewarding successive
: > >> approximations of the ideal with increasing criteria until
: > >> she is leaning forward to take it, standing and taking a
: > >> step forward to take it, etc.
: > >
: > >Sounds brilliant. Take a step forward and take this... and
: > >I'll reward you with successive approximations of the ideal
: > >shtupping.
: > >
: > >> The biggest challenge is taking it from the floor.
: > >
: > >Sounds intricately complicated, getting a Retriever Dog to
: > >pick something up off the floor. Took me five minutes to
: > >teach my shep to pick up what I tell her to.
: > >
: > >The reason it's a problem for you, is because you've
: > >choked the dog out of mouthing when she was little...
: > >
: > >> A dumbell helps by elevating the bar. I also use a dummy
: > >> with the end sawed off (hollow) and holding it out on a
: > >> stick to remove my hand gradually from the picture.
: > >> Eventually I can place any object at the far end of the
: > >> table and command "fetch" and she will run down to get it,
: > >> return with it and sit to deliver.
: > >
: > >OR ELSE WHAT??? IF your dog done something wrong,
: > >you go back to more pain, that's what...
: > >
: > >> All of the above steps must be retraced when the transition
: > >> is made from the table to the floor. At any failure, I back
: > >> up to the preceeding step(s).
: > >
: > >More abuse? Of course, that's all you understand.
: > >
: > >> Marilyn, I've skipped a lot and glossed over even more.
: > >
: > >Of course, it's too gruesome to print here. Don't apologize,
: > >we wouldn't care to hear any more of that kind of garbage
: > >talk.
: > >
: > >> The whole process on the table takes anywhere from a couple
: > >> weeks to a few months.
: > >
: > >Much longer that it would take if you simply taught the dog to
: > >enjoy working and trained the dog properly, instead of abusing
: > >it.
: > >
: > >I've never had a dog in training for a few months, because my
: > >dogs are motivated to work, and they enjoy it, even without the
: > >"advanced" pinching and twisting and choking and shocking.
: > >
: > >All the good stuff my dogs miss...
: > >
: > >> A lot of short sessions each day are better than long ones
: > >> less frequently.
: > >
: > >Harassment?
: > >
: > >> And this process is only the foundation step in a
: > >> progression of basic exercises that take another 6 months to
: > >> a year (with daily work) to complete.
: > >
: > >Far too much time, and that's only because you are using force
: > >and consequently mishandling your dogs.
: > >
: > >> None of the more advanced handling concepts make sense to
: > >> the dog until she understands this basic lesson.
: > >
: > >"ADVANCED?" You are nuts. You are no better than
: > >lyingdogDUMMY or lyinglynn, or lyingfrosty dahy, or
: > >cindymooreon, you just clean it up a little better, and
: > >make HURTIN DOGS sound charming.
: > >
: > >It isn't, and people are smartening up, and they are not being
: > >fooled by your attempted deception, now that I'm here. Before,
: > >you could make sense out of your abuse, and get support from
: > >the other abusive pigs here, because there wasn't anyone that
: > >could dispute you screwballs. But that's changing, and you
ain't
: > >gittin away with it any longer.
: > >
: > >That's why I'm here.
: > >
: > >> So when Amy talks about the devotion this engenders, if
: > >> nothing else, the *time* spent together is a bonding
: > >> process.
: > >
: > >You are truly sickening. You are a disgusting pig. A vile,
: > >vicious, ignorant, disgusting, filthy, rotten, lousy,
psychotic,
: > >rabid, dog abusing, pig.
: > >
: > >> You can't help but get to know your dog better.
: > >
: > >You never will, handling them like that. They don't want
: > >to get to know you any better either. And likewise for any
: > >decent human being. But that's the only reason I'm here,
: > >because you @$$holes are such disgusting pigs, it's
: > >intolerable, and I'm going to make sure everybody
: > >understands exactly what the hell is going on here, and
: > >people like you will soon not be tolerated any longer.
: > >
: > >> And when you can trust instantaneous response to one
: > >> command, others folllow suit.
: > >
: > >Correct. That's why I teach an instant response to the come
: > >command on the first lesson. It takes about one hour, and
: > >everything else is downhill from there... And I don't pinch
or
: > >shock or inflict any pain.
: > >
: > >> Minor behavior problems become petty issues to correct.
: > >
: > >With violence? Fear? Force? Intimidation?
: > >
: > >> You are attuned to your dog to a never-before anticipated
: > >> degree.
: > >
: > >Because of mistrust and contempt? You are talking out of
both
: > >sides of your mouth at once. You learned from Koehler. You
: > >too, are a master of deception and pain.
: > >
: > >> And vice-versa.
: > >
: > >You could be confined in a mental institution for talking
like
: > >that.
: > >
: > >> I won't say I don't know people who cause undue pain to
the
: > >> dog during this process.
: > >
: > >And you use just enough pain to make the dog love it, and
: > >love working, and love working for you? He respects you for
: > >punishing and hurting him?
: > >
: > >Nobody reading your post is going to respect you for
: > >acting like that.
: > >
: > >You are not being entirely truthful, not with us, and not
with
: > >yourself. You have to justify yourself, because even to
: > >yourself, you must be disgusting.
: > >
: > >> But I will say that the vast majority stop *short* of
: > >> demanding perfection; some probably due to feeling unsure
: > >> about the force necessary, but most simply leave the job
too
: > >> soon or settle for less than a complete response.
: > >
: > >Because they toss lunch when they hear their dogs scream?
: > >Or because they realize that they've been misled by some
: > >brilliant sounding abusive pig? Sounds like they have more
: > >brains than you and your chump chums here.
: > >
: > >> But when done correctly and completely, a bond is formed
: > >> that lasts a lifetime.
: > >
: > >Thanks. I've got a bond for you I'd like put to you once or
: > >twice...
: > >
: > >> And it's entirely 2-way!
: > >
: > >No, it's entirely insane and disgusting. And the most
: > >despicable part of it is, that you could do a better job if
: > >you used intelligence instead of force, to motivate that dog
: > >to want to work. My dogs will do anything I ask, without
ever
: > >being brutalized.
: > >
: > >You really stink out loud.
: > >
: > >Your post her was particularly annoying. Get help. You are a
: > >mental case like lyingdogDUMMY and lyingfrosty dahl and
: > >cindymooreon.
: > >
: > >Stay away from live animals.
: > >
: > >> Susan Fraser, with
: > >> SheBop 'n Shammie, good as gold and twice as precious.
: > >
: > >Yours for pleasure in pain, Jerry "Marquis de Sade," Howe.
: > >
: >
:
:

the puppy wizard

BWEEEAAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!


or


like

with


too

eeng

So what you're saying is that you're against positive reinforcement in
the training of animals and prefer to use force and abuse. Lovely.
Or perhaps you took offense at the post because you saw your own
reflection in it.

tsetse

I think we all have to realize that these people have very special dogs.
When the boss dog in one of their packs is challenged by a youngster, he
calls a conference, and the whole pack discusses the matter. After a number
of alternatives are proposed, a vote is taken, and paws counted. Counseling
of one type or another is always decided upon, and the miscreant is told
that he will receive only one half of his usual T-bone steak on any day that
he bites the Alpha Dog. (Oops, excuse me, I just recalled that we are told
there is not such thing as an Alpha Dog, which of course is true in this
type of pack, where equality reigns, and any canine with thoughts of
ascendancy would die of mortification at his own presumption.

The real chilling thought is that they might raise their kids the way they
raise their dogs.

c. macklin

I doubt that you have the requisite intellect to make reasonable
presumptions about what I prefer or the techniques that I use in the
training of my retrievers.

I will endeavor to make a point here in order to aid in the understanding of
any novice trainer who might become confused by the ridiculous assertions
and ill-conceived rhetoric contained in your original post.

for example:

"Any time the word "force" appears in reference to training any animal,
abuse is occurring. "

This statement makes a strong, but perhaps misleading point. There are
several techniques that are traditionally accepted for conditioning the
`forced retrieve', but to equate `force' with abuse without having
quantified the results of said technique, and without qualifying the
statement with specific recommendations which have (in your own experience)
yielded equal results to the methods you (presumably) deplore is
intellectually dishonest.

And this:

" Proper training occurs only when you are able to
find a natural response to stimuli and can encourage it with positive
reinforcement. Always give an animal its due. Let's keep it
perfectly clear that "stimuli" means the activity or event that you
want a response to."

Is sufficiently ambiguous to have less value or meaning than the several
pounds of what the first rule of canine behavior generates in my yard and
kennels each week, yet retains some of the fuzzy quality that warms the
hearts of anthromorphic behavioral theorists everywhere.

And this, I sincerely doubt:

".......... every hunter I know that uses dogs
(and I know literally hundreds of them)........"
"......... no hunting dog that I know of (among my
circles) has ever even seen a hand lifted in anger or ever heard a harsh
word in their direction."

But, since you raise the point, what are your experiences with these
hundreds of dogs?
Have you seen them work?
Train with their owners?
What is the relative quality of these dogs, I probably can't name 100 people
that I know that hunt with dogs that they have trained themselves but, of
the dozens that come to mind, I'd guess about 15-20% have participated in
hunt tests or field trials.......what are your (or your friends) experiences
in this arena. My understanding is that these training enthusiasts are
always looking for superior training techniques.......if your philosophy
yields a superior result, shouldn't you be using these results to expose
these bad dog abusing individuals?


WTF?

"Except for one case in which I gladly sent the
man to jail for abuse,......"

Are you some sort of magistrate or law-enforcement official who has the
power to unilaterally lock people up?
Or just some loon busybody with 911 on the speed dial?


If you want to express opinions about dog training, good for you, but you
fail to make a point that the use of `force' is mutually exclusive to loving
and respecting ones dog.

You put forth a great number of empirical statements about what dogs think
and how they behave that contradict both scientific behavioral studies and
the anecdotal experiences of the most successful professional dog trainers
in the history of sporting, law-enforcement, military and behavioral fields
of endeavor.

For the sake of clarity I will add one caveat before I end this:
As I've said before; the ultimate arbiter of any training technique is the
DOG. I have seen happy, stylish enthusiastic dogs that are the product of
training regimens that may be distasteful to the casual observer. I have
also seen pathetic scared-looking dogs whose owners preach the same
"train-me-with-a-hug" gospel that you seem to hold to.
Good judgment and the ability to read dogs and to think like a dog are the
common (which is to say, uncommon) characteristics of all of the great dog
trainers I've known.

From your post it seems that you may fall amongst those who are (in the
vernacular of Texas) "All hat and no cattle" (a lot of damned opinions about
being a cowboy for someone who ain't ranchin')
Which leads me to believe.
If you walk like Jerry and talk like Jerry.....you are probably `witless to
no end'.

the puppy wizard

HOWEDY tsetse,


You an your lyin dog abusing Punk Thug Coward pals
ain't got the intellect to HOWEtwit the cunning of the domestic puppy dog.


These are MENTAL CASES who have abused sick
dead an dying HOWETA CONTROL dogs.


If you know HOWE to handle a critter they won't challenge
you cause you won't be opposing IT.


Kinda like the BaHai Faith?


That's a little harsh, wouldn't you agree?

The Puppy Wizard is fixin to give you the bone...


You don't have to be so polite, that always happens
when The Puppy Wizard give a dog abuser a schtuppin.

Alpha Dog,

Not in a human family... If you think the alphalpha
method is gonna work, ask professor SCRUFF
SHAKE to explain you allelomimetic behavior
and look up "adolescent rebelliHOWES stage"
and you'll see it's abusers like yourself that makes
dogs TURN on their people.


In a human family the dog is a family member, like a kid.


You are a dog abuser and a coward.

Yeah. The Puppy Wizard's FREE WWW Wits' End
Dog Training Method Manual Students report the
same same same same nearly instant total non
physical control when they use it on their kids and
spHOWESES and employees...

It's all in The Puppy Wizard's Archives.

But you knew that.

<blkdog4@charter.net>


reinforcement

Here abHOWETS positive reinforcement can mean HURT the dog.


Welcome to HOWER DOG LOVER'S FORUMS.


That's HOWE COME The Puppy Wizard sez these
cowards dog abusers liars and mental cases can't post here noMOORE...

INDEEDY.

Disciple Paulie Writes:

I've never forced my dogs to do anything, I tell them
they are good dogs and they seem to follow me, once
I told them they were bad dogs and they ran away from
me, now I only ever tell them they are good dogs and
they always are, always.

Trust your dog, ask it to do your request and
say "good dog" sincerely at the end of the
request and I bet you'll find your dog thinking
then responding everytime.

A bit of respect works wonders, the same rule
applies to every aspect of the relationship with
your dog.

Obedience and affection are not related, if they
were everyone would have obedient dogs.

Paul.

========================

----- Original Message -----
From: <BNTDOBES@aol.com>
To: <jhowe2@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2002 7:22 PM
Subject: Re: Wits end Training

"His Amazing Progress Almost Makes Me Cry.
Your Method Takes Positive Training To The
Next Level And Should Really Be Used By All
Trainers Who Call Themselves Trainers. Thank
You For Helping Me Save His Life," Kay Pierce,
Professional Trainer, 30 Years Experience.


----- Original Message -----
From: <BNTDOBES@aol.com>
To: <jhowe2@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 7:54 PM Subject: Making Progress


===============

----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Bousie
To: The Puppy Wizard
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 8:00 AM
Subject: Geday.


Hey J,

I see nothings changed on the NG. Still the same
old crappy advice and misunderstanding of the
only advice worth reading.

The problem with your method J is that I can't
answer the questions on the NG no more, people
are after a quick fix, they don't want to understand
that dog training requires a disiplined method, I'm
now really understanding that they are all result
orientated, they want the dog to sit, to down, to
stay, to come, to stop it's "bad" behaviours, they
want to stamp out each anxiety one at a time not
realising they create a new one as they deal with
the last.

I feel sorry for them, they don't understand, they
don't even realise the errors of thier ways and
they arn't self thinkers, they follow the majority,
after all if everyone says thats the way then it
must be. I've finally realised people don't want
to learn to train dogs they want a trained dog,
they want a little puppet that sits and stays and
downs and does all the nice doggy stuff or so
they think, then when the dog acts like a dog
they come squealing to the NG asking how to
stop the dog being a dog.

I have a nice little visulisation of a dogs mind
that I think demonstrates the way we approach
dog training. Imagine lots of little circles all in a
cluster, each one representing a dog anxiety or
behaviour ( desied or not), each circle represents
something about the dog, all of them create what
a dog is.

The traditional way to train a dog is to stamp out
the "bad" circles, try to eliminate as many as you
can, problem is each one you stamp out another
takes it's place (anxiety circles can't be destroyed
they just change), obviously it's a futile exercise,
but thats the traditional way.

Now imagine a big circle that completely surrounds
all the small circles, this big circle is the whole dog,
that's what we get hold of with all the little circles
inside, we don't see the little circles we see the BIG
circle the macro as you put it and use that to train.

I laugh now when I see posts critisising you, they
are critising something they don't even understand
or even have the capacity to understand.

See ya,
Paul ===============


:>

"Paul B" <someone@microsoft.com> wrote in message news:3edc57c5@clear.net.nz...


100% TOTAL NON PHYSICAL CONTROL, NEARLY
INSTANTLY, BY NEARLY EVERY FREE WWW Wits'
End Dog Training Method Manual Student.

It's the GENTLEST, FASTEST, MOST EFFECTIVE,
NON FORCE, NON CONFRONTATIONAL, NON BRIBE,
SCIENTIFIC and PSYCHOLOGICAL technique in the
Whole Wild World, BAR NONE.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Bousie" <paulbousie@clear.net.nz>
To: "'Don Fitz'" <donfitz69@hotmail.com>; <Amanda@DCFWatch.com>
Cc: <jhowe2@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 5:45 AM
Subject: RE: Jerry Howe


==============================
"Paul B" <panders@zfree.co.nz> wrote in message news:3c2ae204@clear.net.nz...

=======================


Subject: Re: Get off the bed... please?

Paul B (NOSPAMpaulbousie@clear.net.nz)
Subject: Good dogs!!! bad dogs.??
Date: 2000/10/21

Something occurred this morning that made me think how
we treat our dogs and what expectations we have of them.

Because it was a Saturday we slept in and the dogs
eventually jumped up on the bed on my wife's side. After
a brief greeting she very abruptly demanded they get down,
"OFF THE BED" she insisted, Sam looked at her perplexed,
so she repeated the "order", so Sam tried to lick her face,
"GET OFF" she said abruptly.

Sam got down but was unsure what he had done wrong. After
a bit they both came over and jumped up on my side, I patted
them etc and eventually asked them to get down, "off the bed,
good dogs" and they hopped off immediately with no prob's.

Eileen asked me why they obey me and not her so easily.
I told her they got down for me because I asked them to,
they know the command "off the bed" or "off anything" so
there is no need to demand it of them, ask them and they
will comply, demand it and they get confused because
they think you are annoyed with them but they don't know
why so they try to "make amends" which is why Sam licked her.

I have found giving dogs "payment" in advance i.e. "Sam
sit goodboy" makes the dogs want to respond, after all, all
dogs want to be "good dogs" and if you tell them they are
good then they feel an obligation to obey your request.

Telling Sam he's a good dog after he sit's apart from been too
late is also a gamble because if he doesn't sit then there's
no positive interaction.

Trust your dog, ask it to do your request and say "good dog"
sincerely at the end of the request and I bet you'll find your
dog thinking then responding everytime.

Paul

=======================


From: Paul B (NOSPAMpanders@zfree.co.nz)
Subject: Re: Get off the bed... please?
Date: 2001-07-03 03:05:59 PST

A bit of respect works wonders, the same rule applies to
every aspect of the relationship with your dog.

Paul. ========================
"Nevyn" <greatdane@badmama.com.au> wrote in message
news:1061695905.896739@grimiore.conceptual.net.au. ..

HOWEDY Group,

Here some SUCCESS STORIES ive had using JERRY'S MANUAL

1) My dogz, two bitches - Vicious, barking, aggressive, pulled
on leash, wanted to kill any dogs they saw, fought between
each other. TWO WEEKS using Jerry's manual, they were calm,
friends, my companions.

2) ADDED A BEAGLE PUPPY (male) to my "PACK", the
girls had -NO PROBLEMS- with him from the moment I
dropped him by their noses.

3) My FRIENDS dogs 2 MALES barking and jumping
at the fence all night 3 DAYS TRAINING WITH JERRY'S
MANUAL they were CALMED AND HAVEN'T BARKED ONCE!

Added a NEW MALE DOG (2 yrs old) AND
WELCOMED HIM WITH NO WUCKAS !

4) POODLE that ATE food from the KITCHEN BENCH -
lock him in a box? NO! USE JERRYS MANUAL! 4 DAYS
AND HES NEVER DONE IT SINCE!

5) ABUSED DOGS AT THE SHELTER I WORK AT -
HAD TO BE FED WITH A BUCKET ON A STICK -
ONE WEEK ON JERRYS MANUAL, THE SUPERVISOR
TOLD ME TO PUT THEM IN THE PUBLIC KENNELS
FOR SALE !

Quite amazing to - I thought they were just dull coloured
dogs, but after I had removed the fear and anxiety their
hairs coloured up amazingly.

6) STAFFY FEMALE who would NOT DROP HER
BALL! She carried it around all day and night - 3
DAYS on jerrys MANUAL and she now DROPS
it when u ASK her to!

BWHWHAHAHAHAAHA !!!!

Nevyn


----- Original Message -----
From: Eric
To: ThePuppyWizard@EarthLink.Net
Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 7:54 AM
Subject: just checking in..

Jerry!

You helped me with my pal Dundee about a year ago
regarding submissive peeing. Just wanted to let you
know he's doing great- he was "cured" in about 2 days
using your techniques!

He has since become the "smartest dog in the world"!
Once I stopped thinking like a human and got inside his
head, I can teach him ANYTHING, usually in a matter
of minutes. Makes me look like an expert dog-trainer.

I rescued two strays last week, cleaned 'em up, wormed
'em, and am getting them their shots. Time to get inside
their heads and teach them to teach themselves how to
be good dogs!

Instead of feeling like "training" is a chore, I look forward
to working with these guys a couple times a day...

Although I don't follow your instructions "to a T", I learned
from you to "think like a dog" and stimulate their brain rather
than beating ass or pinching, or any of that nonsense.

I know damn well I would NOT be loyal to someone who
beat MY ass lol!

Well, just wanted to thank you for rattling the bushes
out there and teaching folks the RIGHT way to "train" dogs.

A horseman friend of mine uses very similar techniques in
training his horses- he calls it "natural horsemanship". He
is hated by nearly all the local "trainers" yet somehow he
repeatedly wins at every show he attends. He rarely shows
any more, but goes now and then to rub their noses in it
(pun intended)... Too cool....

Have a great holiday season and keep up the good work!

Eric , Dundee, Sammy, and Maynard

==========================


Nevyn writes:

Jerry I cannot even begin to tell you the success Ive had with
your training manual! My two mutts have gone from out-of-control
psychos to obedient well behaved companions within
a matter of weeks! AND My friends have seen the success
and have asked me to work on their dogs!

I was working with a 5 month old Ridgeback female today and
she was being an angel after like an hour of working with her!

it is AMAZING!!

I pity those fools who take their dogs to classes where the
"Trainers" abuse their dogs! (do they have a degree? A
masters? a Phd? by the way? NO they are average joes
off the street who think they know how to train dogs!)

Once again, Jerry, you are a genius!

NEVYN and my Dogs, Rizzo and Midget, My Grandparents
dogs, Dusty and Snoopy, and my friends pup, Jazz.

================

Never give out your password or credit card number in an
instant message conversation.

Nevyn says:
hello Jerry.

Jerry says:
HOWEDY Nevyn

Nevyn says:
How are you?

Jerry says:
sup?

Nevyn says:
Oh nothing

Nevyn says:

My dogs are alot better now!

Jerry says:
fine

Jerry says:
tell me

Nevyn says:
I can walk them on or off the leash and they don't
give a #@% about other dogs

Jerry says:
naah

Nevyn says:
I can let them inside and they wont eat the cats

Jerry says:
naah

Nevyn says:
Yup

Jerry says:
what did you do, buy a shock collar?

Nevyn says:
No

Nevyn says:
Praised them

Jerry says:
ahh!

Jerry says:
you think they're 100% better

Nevyn says:
'cept they still bark at the neighbour but only coz he swears
at them and pours water on them

Nevyn says:
nahh they still have stinky breath!

Nevyn says:
muahaha

Jerry says:
ok

Jerry says:
I'll go for that

Jerry says:
it'll take a couple more days to break the neighbor thing if
you're consistent

Jerry says:
then he won't swear and throw water at them

Nevyn says:
yeah but he's only out on the weekends

Jerry says:
but they'll still have stinky breath

Nevyn says:
muahahaha

Jerry says:
you gonna write the group and tell them they're
****in hind teat?

Nevyn says:
eh

Nevyn says:
nah

Nevyn says:
cant

Nevyn says:
my news server isn't workin

Nevyn says:
how about u just screenshot or copy this chat and post it

Jerry says:
why not.

Nevyn says:
sorry been tryin all day to get on the news server

Jerry says:
you got anything you'd like to tell the dog lovers who
would prefer to see you choke and shock and lock
your dogs in a box?

Jerry says:
I guess you don't want to tell them nuthin that they
don't already know, huh?

Nevyn says:
hah

Nevyn says:
tell them they're ****ers who need to die

Nevyn says:
dogs aren't for abusing they are for loving they love so much

Jerry says:
that's HOWE COME they got me now

Jerry says:
howe much training time did it take for the two of 'em?

Nevyn says:
pfftt

Nevyn says:
it didn't even seem like training

Nevyn says:
its been 24 days since I got your manual

Jerry says:
pfffttt!!!!

Jerry says:
hhahahahaha

Jerry says:
have you got that feeling that they're in tune with
EVERYTHING you're wanting them to do?

Jerry says:
I forgot what city you're in.

Jerry says:
maybe if you're near alphalpha sweeny you can
swing by and LAUGH your ass off at him growling
at his dogs???

Jerry says:
BWWWHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

Nevyn says:
LOL

Nevyn says:
I'm in Perth, Australia!

Nevyn says:
and yes they do seem to be in tune

=====================

Nevyn says:
oh!! the other day my dogs went into submissive
position when a tiny little toy poodle came up
barking at them! !LOL

Jerry says:
EXCELLENT!

Nevyn says:
lol

Jerry says:
they knew they didn't need to fight, cause everything
was in your expert control.

Keep up the good work. j;~)
-----------------

From: Nevyn (alien4@wasp.net.au)
Subject: Newsgroups: rec. pets. dogs. behavior

Date: 2002-03-01 03:15:50 PST

Hello

I have two mungrel females; the breeds exactly
are Blue Heeler (spots) x Kelpi (dominant genes)
x American Pitbull (behavioural) x Pug (don't laugh!).

They are gentle loving dogs when I'm at home with
them, and they are friendly with unknown people.
They are sisters. One is obviously dominant over the
other, and I don't have a problem with that, however;

Their behaviour is very odd. Some days they are very
good whilst I'm walking them, some days they are not.
They are 3 years old and have only been walking for
about 12 months because my mom didn't walk them
and now I'm home so I walk them for about an hour
and half every afternoon. I take them to the park where
they chase birds and swim in the lake.

This is my problem :

The less-dominant dog viscously barks at every other
dog we walk past; I have tried using a stick and giving
her a tap when she does it, and treating her with treats
when she doesn't, using a choke chain, a muzzle and
a thing that sprays stuff in her mouth when she barks.

She won't stop! Does anyone know how I can stop her? ]

Also, the more-dominant dog seems to know this
is WRONG, when the other dog barks, she doesn't
bark, but she nips at the other dog as if telling her
to cut it out, and then the barking one attacks the
more-dominant one and they fight on the leash...
it is quite disturbing to the people walking past.

And also the more-dominant one is okay around
other dogs...

SOMETIMES... sometimes she completely ignores
them, and yet other times she will attack them, like
yesterday. The less dominant one I must keep on a
leash if a person brings there dog to the park.

How do I stop them attacking other dogs? I have tried
all the methods I have used above for 10 months every
afternoon. Is it just a pac k-behaviour thing?

It can really be quite embarrassing when your dogs
attack some old lady's or little girl's dog.

They are good dogs, when at home or when there
are no other dogs around. Today there were hundreds
of sparrows flying around the park and they were
chasing them and jumping up trying to catch them
for more than 90 minutes (They went straight to bed
when I bought them home!).

Can anyone help me? Email me at my emails address,
alien4@wasp.net.au coz this list is tooo crowded.

Thanks,
Nevyn

=======================

"Charlie Wilkes" <charlie_wilkes@easynews.com wrote
in message
news: pjaootcg8dgrptuu96383933eqk2jjp7b2@4ax.com...

I read up on rotties, pitbulls, etc., and quite a
bit of the literature suggested I needed to assert
my dominance and "make the dog earn everything it
gets."

I tried this once or twice, just by taking a stern
tone of voice, and the results were terrible.
The pup got scared and just wanted to stay away from
me.

That's why I support Jerry Howe and his FREE
Wits' End Dog Training manual -- that and the fact
that Jerry is an all-around great guy.

The core takeaway I got from Jerry's manual is this:
make yourself the center of your puppy's world -
- his personal Lord Jesus. Never give him a reason
to fear you or think you're angry. Love the heck
out of him, and you'll end up with a great dog.

This has truly worked with my puppy. She'll do
anything I want her to, if she understands, because
she trusts me 100 percent, and nothing is more
important in her world than her relationship
with me. http://www.geocities.com/viscouspuppy
Charlie

=========================


"I know that most men, including those at ease with
problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept
even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would
oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they
have delighted in explaining to colleagues, proudly
taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by
thread, into the fabric of their lives."
-Leo Tolstoy-

Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated
more complaints to my personal email than any other
controversial post I have made to date, bar none?:

CAVEAT
If you have to do things to your dog to train him that you
would rather not have to do, then you shouldn't be doing
them. If you have a dog trainer who tells you to jerk your
dog around, choke him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes,
shock, shake, slap, scold, hit, chin cuff, scruff shake or
punish your dog in any manner, that corrections
are appropriate, that the dog won't think of you as the
punisher, or that corrections are not harmful, or if they
can't train your dog to do what you want, look for a
trainer that knows HOWE.

Thank you,
Jerry Howe,
Director of Research,
BIOSOUND Scientific
Director of Training,
Wits' End Dog Training
1611 24th St
Orlando, FL 32805
Phone: 1-407-425-5092
Phone: 1-888-BIOSOUND (1-888-246-7686)
Phone: 1-888-WITSEND (1-888-948-7363)
http://www.doggydoright.com

Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed.
-Francis Bacon-

There are terrible people who, instead of solving a
problem, bungle it and make it more difficult for all who
come after. Who ever can't hit the nail on the head
should, please, not hit at all.
-Nietzsche-

The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are
learned qualities.

The Wits' End Dog Training Method challenges the learning
centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged,
develop and continue to grow to make him smarter.

The Wits' End Dog Training method capitalizes on
praising split seconds of canine thought, strategy, and
timing, not mindless hours of forced repetition, constant
corrections, and scolding.
-Jerry Howe-

The Puppy Wizard. <}TPW ; ~ ) >

ANY QUESTIONS, DUMMIES?
,-._,-,
V)"(V
(_o_) Have a great day!
/ V)
(l l l) Your Puppy Wizzzard. <}YPW ; ~ } >
oo-oo