daniel j. lavigne

This morning I had a thought. The sustainability discussion just
seems to rumble around going nowhere. I think that for most people
it is really the question "Can a society that has a level of goods
and comfort that appeals to me make it over time". That is of course
a question that is normal for humans to ask. But the question that
really gets us somewhere is what is human society likely to look like
when limits are back in place. Then we can speculate on how badly
the planet will be ruined before the oil runs out. Regardless of who
survives the cull humans are genetically social animals. Social
animals have members with differing skills and personalities.
Perhaps we can look at who survived after the Summerians ruined their
eden and what culture they formed to get some clues. We are so used
to overcoming limits that we think they don't exist. We are used to
defeating disease with drugs and vaccines that we forget the limits
that microrganisms can place on on. We are used to shaping raw
materials in diverse forms thanks to oil. We are not used to looking
at the raw material and seeing what form it has that is useful to
us. (Caveman looks for a hand size rock that is not soapstone in
order to bonk his neighbor - small enough to make his approach non
threatening and hard enough to do damage)

Well I haven't worked this through but sometimes I think we get hung
up on the wrong questions. The sustainable question comes I think
from the perspective that we are more in control where as the
question of what the limits will be and how we will live within them
comes from a position of being less in control. If we have no free
will and are formed by the laws of nature and natural selection we
are not in control. Limits will be imposed and some will live within
them and some will die because of them. Humans will survive as a
species until something limits them to the point that they cannot
survive as a species.

6 am thoughts - any comments? Kathy
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Add your voice to reason's call. Join the Tax Refusal.
***********************************************
http://www.taxrefusal.com http://www.dieoff.com
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"Never doubt that a small group of committed individuals can change
the world; indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." - Margaret Mead

daniel j. lavigne

Ok ! Enough. There is not any possibilities of sustainability before a
reduction of the population to 2 or maybe 1 billion.

So how do we activate that?? Plague properly the best way and only if it
is done by nature ( not man made). If nuclear : the end.

Bent in the Canadian wilderness.
***********************************************
A more accurate guess is probably in the
range of 800 Million to 1.2 Billion.

There is no "best way" to bring such about. We must
rely on sufficiently aware individuals and their
determination to wake the world to the scope of
the crisis. One of my recent / previous posts
suggests a path that should be taken.

Also, we face the possibility of a large number
of suicides once governments start to go
public with the information.
***********************************************
Add your voice to reason's call. Join the Tax Refusal.
***********************************************
http://www.taxrefusal.com http://www.dieoff.com
***********************************************
"Never doubt that a small group of committed individuals can change
the world; indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." - Margaret Mead

daniel j. lavigne

--- In the_dieoff_QA@yahoogroups.com, "Kathy R" <r
ustyjewell@h...Kathy said: (in reverse order)


Yeah. How the hell can you think so lucidly at 6 o'clock
in the morning? <g>

society that has a level of goods and comfort that appeals to me
make it over time".

Or as my daughter said: "I'm not gonna live in some damm tent in Montana!"

nowhere.

I think that part of the problem is in the local definition
of sustainable.

Jay wants to see *intentional*, pre-meditated, designed
sustainability . The fact that many (not all) "primitive"
cultures lived for 1000's of years in ways that didn't
diminish their local resources doesn't 'count' here as
real sustainability because they neglected to file the
necessary papers before they embarked on their sustainable
lifestyle. That these people lived like this doesn't, in
itself, automatically make them nobel or even necessarily
wise but it *does* suggest that it was (and might still be)
possible for homo sapiens to live on this planet w/o using it up.

society likely to look like when limits are back in place. Then we
can speculate on how badly the planet will be ruined before the oil
runs out. Regardless of who survives the cull humans are genetically
social animals. Social animals have members with differing skills and
personalities. Perhaps we can look at who survived after the
Summerians ruined their eden and what culture they formed to get some
clues. We are so used to overcoming limits that we think they don't
exist. We are used to defeating disease with drugs and vaccines that
we forget the limits that microrganisms can place on on. We are used
to shaping raw materials in diverse forms thanks to oil. We are not
used to looking at the raw material and seeing what form it has that
is useful to us.

What you are talking about is our cultural perspective.
The invisible "blinders" that we all wear that cause us to
see the world as something that must be conquered rather
than the place that we belong to. And I think that you're
on the right track.

We all have genetically issued qualities that make it
challenging for us to "work together" w/ other people in a
manner that we'd consider to be rational & logical. But I
don't believe that our genetic inheritance is solely
responsible for our "scorched earth" behavior and the sad
state of affairs that we find ourselves in today. I
think the true culprit here is our "western" (White Guy)
culture.

The challenge, of course, is how to step outside of our
culture and see the world w/ "new" eyes. Very hard to do.
But to the degree that we can do so then to that degree we
will have a headstart on the Great Transition

question comes I think from the perspective that we are more in
control whereas the question of what the limits will be and how we
will live within them comes from a position of being less in control.

Exactly! "How can I totally structure *my* transition to
this new Hunter-Gatherer (TM) Lifestyle and not miss my
favorite TV programs?"

There are *so many* variables in how this will all play
out that it's literally impossible to "plan" for in all
but the most general sense. And those of us (guilty) who
*must* control everything are going to spend a hell of a
lot of time and effort spinning our wheels at best.

~ lance
---------------------------------------
"Civilization needs the tribal values to survive,
but these very same values are destroyed by civilization".
---------------------------------------
***********************************************
Add your voice to reason's call. Join the Tax Refusal.
***********************************************
http://www.taxrefusal.com http://www.dieoff.com
***********************************************
"Never doubt that a small group of committed individuals can change
the world; indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." - Margaret Mead

daniel j. lavigne

This morning I had a thought. The sustainability discussion just
seems to rumble around going nowhere. I think that for most people
it is really the question "Can a society that has a level of goods
and comfort that appeals to me make it over time". That is of course
a question that is normal for humans to ask. But the question that
really gets us somewhere is what is human society likely to look like
when limits are back in place. Then we can speculate on how badly
the planet will be ruined before the oil runs out. Regardless of who
survives the cull humans are genetically social animals. Social
animals have members with differing skills and personalities.
Perhaps we can look at who survived after the Summerians ruined their
eden and what culture they formed to get some clues. We are so used
to overcoming limits that we think they don't exist. We are used to
defeating disease with drugs and vaccines that we forget the limits
that microrganisms can place on on. We are used to shaping raw
materials in diverse forms thanks to oil. We are not used to looking
at the raw material and seeing what form it has that is useful to
us. (Caveman looks for a hand size rock that is not soapstone in
order to bonk his neighbor - small enough to make his approach non
threatening and hard enough to do damage)

Well I haven't worked this through but sometimes I think we get hung
up on the wrong questions. The sustainable question comes I think
from the perspective that we are more in control where as the
question of what the limits will be and how we will live within them
comes from a position of being less in control. If we have no free
will and are formed by the laws of nature and natural selection we
are not in control. Limits will be imposed and some will live within
them and some will die because of them. Humans will survive as a
species until something limits them to the point that they cannot
survive as a species.

6 am thoughts - any comments? Kathy
***********************************************
Add your voice to reason's call. Join the Tax Refusal.
***********************************************
http://www.taxrefusal.com http://www.dieoff.com
***********************************************
"Never doubt that a small group of committed individuals can change
the world; indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." - Margaret Mead

daniel j. lavigne

Ok ! Enough. There is not any possibilities of sustainability before a
reduction of the population to 2 or maybe 1 billion.

So how do we activate that?? Plague properly the best way and only if it
is done by nature ( not man made). If nuclear : the end.

Bent in the Canadian wilderness.
***********************************************
A more accurate guess is probably in the
range of 800 Million to 1.2 Billion.

There is no "best way" to bring such about. We must
rely on sufficiently aware individuals and their
determination to wake the world to the scope of
the crisis. One of my recent / previous posts
suggests a path that should be taken.

Also, we face the possibility of a large number
of suicides once governments start to go
public with the information.
***********************************************
Add your voice to reason's call. Join the Tax Refusal.
***********************************************
http://www.taxrefusal.com http://www.dieoff.com
***********************************************
"Never doubt that a small group of committed individuals can change
the world; indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." - Margaret Mead

daniel j. lavigne

--- In the_dieoff_QA@yahoogroups.com, "Kathy R" <r
ustyjewell@h...Kathy said: (in reverse order)


Yeah. How the hell can you think so lucidly at 6 o'clock
in the morning? <g>

society that has a level of goods and comfort that appeals to me
make it over time".

Or as my daughter said: "I'm not gonna live in some damm tent in Montana!"

nowhere.

I think that part of the problem is in the local definition
of sustainable.

Jay wants to see *intentional*, pre-meditated, designed
sustainability . The fact that many (not all) "primitive"
cultures lived for 1000's of years in ways that didn't
diminish their local resources doesn't 'count' here as
real sustainability because they neglected to file the
necessary papers before they embarked on their sustainable
lifestyle. That these people lived like this doesn't, in
itself, automatically make them nobel or even necessarily
wise but it *does* suggest that it was (and might still be)
possible for homo sapiens to live on this planet w/o using it up.

society likely to look like when limits are back in place. Then we
can speculate on how badly the planet will be ruined before the oil
runs out. Regardless of who survives the cull humans are genetically
social animals. Social animals have members with differing skills and
personalities. Perhaps we can look at who survived after the
Summerians ruined their eden and what culture they formed to get some
clues. We are so used to overcoming limits that we think they don't
exist. We are used to defeating disease with drugs and vaccines that
we forget the limits that microrganisms can place on on. We are used
to shaping raw materials in diverse forms thanks to oil. We are not
used to looking at the raw material and seeing what form it has that
is useful to us.

What you are talking about is our cultural perspective.
The invisible "blinders" that we all wear that cause us to
see the world as something that must be conquered rather
than the place that we belong to. And I think that you're
on the right track.

We all have genetically issued qualities that make it
challenging for us to "work together" w/ other people in a
manner that we'd consider to be rational & logical. But I
don't believe that our genetic inheritance is solely
responsible for our "scorched earth" behavior and the sad
state of affairs that we find ourselves in today. I
think the true culprit here is our "western" (White Guy)
culture.

The challenge, of course, is how to step outside of our
culture and see the world w/ "new" eyes. Very hard to do.
But to the degree that we can do so then to that degree we
will have a headstart on the Great Transition

question comes I think from the perspective that we are more in
control whereas the question of what the limits will be and how we
will live within them comes from a position of being less in control.

Exactly! "How can I totally structure *my* transition to
this new Hunter-Gatherer (TM) Lifestyle and not miss my
favorite TV programs?"

There are *so many* variables in how this will all play
out that it's literally impossible to "plan" for in all
but the most general sense. And those of us (guilty) who
*must* control everything are going to spend a hell of a
lot of time and effort spinning our wheels at best.

~ lance
---------------------------------------
"Civilization needs the tribal values to survive,
but these very same values are destroyed by civilization".
---------------------------------------
***********************************************
Add your voice to reason's call. Join the Tax Refusal.
***********************************************
http://www.taxrefusal.com http://www.dieoff.com
***********************************************
"Never doubt that a small group of committed individuals can change
the world; indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." - Margaret Mead