aja_upfront

No, no, no, I am not. I am just using the Quebec example of retail
dtistribution as an example. On the wholesale side they are just as
corrupt as the Ontario system. For instance you probably know that
only Quebec brewed beers, and Quebec bottled wines are allowed to be
sold in the groceries and deps. That means the only wine sold in the
deps came to Canada (because the Quebecers have a cultural bias to
Canadian wine) in bulk barrels. This policy also tilts the beer
selection to the "slop" from Molson's and Labatt's. You have to go to
the SAQ if you want for instance Corona. They do the same thing in
Newfoundland, but there Labatts and Molson brew Newfoundland exclusive
beers which IMHO are great.
As for price, I have seen more expensive, and less expensive. Just
matters where you go to buy beer. Very recently I saw a case of
Export for under $27 bucks. Add PST + GST + Deposit and that is less
than $34 that it is in Ontario. In all, the average price is about
the same as Ontario.
As for deposit, I don't see them as a problem. You get your money
back after all, and you help the environment.
In all I know you agree with me in that the best system would be the
open system. Any licensed retailer to be able to sell any beer that
they choose to sell. This way the corner store sells the common
stuff, and for the rarer stuff like Courage Director's Bitter, you can
go to the speciality store or large grocery store. Works in Britain
and America just fine.

I was just joking with the NDP comment.

I'm just pointing out some possible oversights in your logic.

And I yours. That why we are here, to learn from each other.

The $600 million is not pure


I know. The sad thing is that when the privatization train comes
around, they include the tax proceeds that would come LCBO or not in
the pitch to keep the monopoly. My opinion, with the massive
underground smuggling and moonshining going on (bigger than the media
reports) which is reportedly over half of all booze in some border
towns and in Toronto, if they posted sane tax rates they could recoup
more taxes then they do now.

Even the govt admits that it is tax. It is no different than sales


They even include that in those "hurray" press releases.

The revenue goes into general tax revenue and ends up paying for

Just like tax money does in the rest of the world, which in almost the
whole world is on the private system.

The LCBO despite your allegations does a pretty good job

I never alledged bad quality. The quality standards I agree with and
the testing should be kept LCBO or not. Supposedly the government
does such a fine job testing meat for the private grocery retailing
system so I agree with you there.

Believe it or not but a number of years back some


Yes that is a problem anywhere in any food business. Just like the
tainted meat scandal today. As someone who worked in the food
industry for years, one of the hardest jobs in food processing is to
keep the process clean. The bad apples spoil the whole industry.
By the way, you don't hear people demanding the we nationalize
slaughterhouses.

At one time around the turn


Same with the infamous antifreeze in wine trick. Thats why I support
testing of not just wine, but of all foods.


Maybe I just hang around and associate with the wrong people, I
suppose. I come from an ethnic group that doesn't consider beer,
cigs, or gambling as evil. In fact my ethnic group is overrepresented
in the casino industry in North America. My family regards those
industries as good solid well paying carrers, and no we are not white
trash. We do the whole church thing. I guess its just your
upbringing I guess.
By the way, I suspect its people like us that changed Toronto for
"Toronto the Good" to Cosmopolitan and International Toronto.

Taxing them is great since they are non-essentials. Most economists
agree going all the way back to Adam Smith. Problem is when you have
a neighbour that has low taxes. Tax Parity is important.

I refuse to believe addiction is a disease. I think addiction is weak
willpower and thus I don't feel sorry for them.

Thats more the Anglo-Saxon Edwardian attitude than the
Christian/Judean attitude. Go to Italy, Spain, or even Tel Aviv and
you'll see. I've been to all those places and the joie de vive is
infectious, even with the problems in for instance Tel Aviv.

Canada is the worlds last bastion of Edwardian or even Victorian
values. Look at how the guidebooks describe us, and look at how the
history books describe Victorians and see the similarities.

Canada came of age in that era. We defined that era, and were
impacted by it more than any other country or province on earth.
Those people and the mindset is still around, and it holds us back in
subtle ways.

Way back when time was first turned

I see you agree with my prior assessment!

I've made hundreds if

True, but growing weed is easier than making wine. You don't need a
hydro lab to make weed, it only helps.

I still contend that the Americans are the main reason drugs

haven't received trade sanctions is because they are too rich and
influential. Weed is technically still illegal in those countries,
and Holland does go after the growers, but the police and cities turn
a blind eye. Its comparable to the prostitution system in Canada.
It's technically illegal, but under a different name they are
regualted and licensed and even have ads in the phone book.
There is a book

I have the book. I liked the comprehansive states, but the authors
personal biases were evident and I as someone in the science field
felt uncompfortable with that. (Adams really doesn't like guns)
The other issue is

I think people and non-Sun Canadian media are catching on to that. We
will go legal one day sooner than anticipated. The economic threats
by the Us are unsettling but we just have to remember that "we are too
close to ignore (like Holland) and too close to invade (like Columbia and Afghanistan)"


Collusion by definition is an unhealthy, uncompetitive market. A good
example of good competition in a regulated market is telephone long
distance. Remember how much it cost 10 years ago??? Now if you look
you can get under $0.05 a minute all day.

Where do you go? Shop around. You can average $15 a case if you
look. Myself I cross the border often so I pick up beer duty free.
$12.99US with $0.10 deposit.


Of course. That's why they keep them. Make your competitors retail
thru you. Make outlets artificially scarce to reduce transport costs.
Can't beat it.

The only thing they want to do now is wipe out the small breweries


I look toward Alberta and Big Rock Brewery there to see how a small
brewery flourished in a privatized system with no floor pricing. I
think as a part owner in a small brewery, the advantages outweigh the
disadvantages in a private open system. They have more capacity and
muscle, like a linebacker. We are more nimble like the running back.
Different positions, both advantageous to any team.

I think there is a place for both in the Ontario market. Now if the
Big Two start buying small guys to kill them off a la "Pop Shoppe"
style, then the regulators should come in. That and exclusive
agreement I think should be banned. They go against an open market
and are currently illegal in Ontario.

If wider distribution occurred its quite

True but most people are not leaders, they are led. They don't have
the knowledge that they are ripped off. The negative of democracy is
that you put most of the power in the people who don't know what the
hell they are talking about. You have lawyer/politicians talking
about Nuclear Reactors in Ontario for instance.
It is the Canadian ethic to be on the timid side. Same with beer.
They just don't know better. Most people don't travel. They don't
know the rest of the world can buy beer at the corner store anytime
they want. The thought just doesn't even occur to them.

CYA

santa

: > Joe,
: > Interesting reply. I get the sense you see the Quebec distribution system
: > as a model for beer and wine.
:
: No, no, no, I am not. I am just using the Quebec example of retail
: dtistribution as an example. On the wholesale side they are just as
: corrupt as the Ontario system. For instance you probably know that
: only Quebec brewed beers, and Quebec bottled wines are allowed to be
: sold in the groceries and deps. That means the only wine sold in the
: deps came to Canada (because the Quebecers have a cultural bias to
: Canadian wine) in bulk barrels. This policy also tilts the beer
: selection to the "slop" from Molson's and Labatt's. You have to go to
: the SAQ if you want for instance Corona. They do the same thing in
: Newfoundland, but there Labatts and Molson brew Newfoundland exclusive
: beers which IMHO are great.
: As for price, I have seen more expensive, and less expensive. Just
: matters where you go to buy beer. Very recently I saw a case of
: Export for under $27 bucks. Add PST + GST + Deposit and that is less
: than $34 that it is in Ontario. In all, the average price is about
: the same as Ontario.
: As for deposit, I don't see them as a problem. You get your money
: back after all, and you help the environment.
: In all I know you agree with me in that the best system would be the
: open system. Any licensed retailer to be able to sell any beer that
: they choose to sell. This way the corner store sells the common
: stuff, and for the rarer stuff like Courage Director's Bitter, you can
: go to the speciality store or large grocery store. Works in Britain
: and America just fine. :
: > I'm not anything. I vote for whoever seems logical.
:
: I was just joking with the NDP comment.
:
: I'm just pointing out some possible oversights in your logic.
:
: And I yours. That why we are here, to learn from each other.
:
: The $600 million is not pure
: > profit.
:
: I know. The sad thing is that when the privatization train comes
: around, they include the tax proceeds that would come LCBO or not in
: the pitch to keep the monopoly. My opinion, with the massive
: underground smuggling and moonshining going on (bigger than the media
: reports) which is reportedly over half of all booze in some border
: towns and in Toronto, if they posted sane tax rates they could recoup
: more taxes then they do now.
:
: Even the govt admits that it is tax. It is no different than sales
: > tax or GST.
:
: They even include that in those "hurray" press releases.
:
: The revenue goes into general tax revenue and ends up paying for
: > hospitals, under-priced electricity, MPPs salaries, provincial prisons,
: > police etc., etc.
:
: Just like tax money does in the rest of the world, which in almost the
: whole world is on the private system.
:
: The LCBO despite your allegations does a pretty good job
: > of quality control, not taste or "quality" but contamination, adulteration,
: > mislabelling, etc., etc.
:
: I never alledged bad quality. The quality standards I agree with and
: the testing should be kept LCBO or not. Supposedly the government
: does such a fine job testing meat for the private grocery retailing
: system so I agree with you there.
:
: Believe it or not but a number of years back some
: > Italian vintners were making wine or the equivalent from ox-blood and the
: > pumpings from the bilges of banana boats or so it was alleged. In any case
: > they lost enormous shares of market for years.
:
: Yes that is a problem anywhere in any food business. Just like the
: tainted meat scandal today. As someone who worked in the food
: industry for years, one of the hardest jobs in food processing is to
: keep the process clean. The bad apples spoil the whole industry.
: By the way, you don't hear people demanding the we nationalize
: slaughterhouses.
:
: At one time around the turn
: > of the 20th century whiskey was regularly adulterated with lye to give it
: > "kick". Even today in Europe a lot of wine is made in concrete fermentation
: > tanks. It needs to be tested for purity before consumption.
:
: Same with the infamous antifreeze in wine trick. Thats why I support
: testing of not just wine, but of all foods. :
: > Alcohol including beer, cigarettes and gambling are all related in that they
: > are classified by many people as things that only sinners consume or
use.
:
: Maybe I just hang around and associate with the wrong people, I
: suppose. I come from an ethnic group that doesn't consider beer,
: cigs, or gambling as evil. In fact my ethnic group is overrepresented
: in the casino industry in North America. My family regards those
: industries as good solid well paying carrers, and no we are not white
: trash. We do the whole church thing. I guess its just your
: upbringing I guess.
: By the way, I suspect its people like us that changed Toronto for
: "Toronto the Good" to Cosmopolitan and International Toronto. :
: > They are all taxed at a very high level and no one needs them to live.
:
: Taxing them is great since they are non-essentials. Most economists
: agree going all the way back to Adam Smith. Problem is when you have
: a neighbour that has low taxes. Tax Parity is important. :
: > History proves that they are all addictive to certain people.
:
: I refuse to believe addiction is a disease. I think addiction is weak
: willpower and thus I don't feel sorry for them. :
: > Prohibition and/or temperance has everything to do with morality. The
: > Christian/Judean ethic says if it is fun it must be immoral, man is supposed
: > to live in misery or something similar.
:
: Thats more the Anglo-Saxon Edwardian attitude than the
: Christian/Judean attitude. Go to Italy, Spain, or even Tel Aviv and
: you'll see. I've been to all those places and the joie de vive is
: infectious, even with the problems in for instance Tel Aviv.
:
: Canada is the worlds last bastion of Edwardian or even Victorian
: values. Look at how the guidebooks describe us, and look at how the
: history books describe Victorians and see the similarities.
:
: Canada came of age in that era. We defined that era, and were
: impacted by it more than any other country or province on earth.
: Those people and the mindset is still around, and it holds us back in
: subtle ways.
:
: Way back when time was first turned
: > on a bright dude figured out that money in the form of taxes allowed the
: > morally superior to give a form of absolution to the sinners. It is not
: > much different than dispensations that used to be sold. At one time the
: > powerful used to taxes spices.
:
: I see you agree with my prior assessment! :
: > I don't agree with you regarding marijuana. If it was readily as available
: > and taxed people would buy it rather than grow it.
: I've made hundreds if
: > not 1000s of gallons of wine and it is a lot of work to make a decent
: > product.
:
: True, but growing weed is easier than making wine. You don't need a
: hydro lab to make weed, it only helps.
:
: I still contend that the Americans are the main reason drugs
: > aren't legal. At one time you could buy heroin at your corner drug store
: > that's about 100 years ago. The Americans suffer from a streak of morality
: > that runs very deep. Deep down a large percentage of them are very
: > uncomfortable with anything that smacks of pure pleasure.
:
: You know, I have to agree. They wrote the UN drug laws. They forced
: the world to sign on to it. The only reason Holland and Switzerland
: haven't received trade sanctions is because they are too rich and
: influential. Weed is technically still illegal in those countries,
: and Holland does go after the growers, but the police and cities turn
: a blind eye. Its comparable to the prostitution system in Canada.
: It's technically illegal, but under a different name they are
: regualted and licensed and even have ads in the phone book.
:
: There is a book
: > called Fire and Ice that illustrates some of the differences between US and
: > Canada. It is largely statistics but very interesting.
:
: I have the book. I liked the comprehansive states, but the authors
: personal biases were evident and I as someone in the science field
: felt uncompfortable with that. (Adams really doesn't like guns)
:
: The other issue is
: > the vested interests that have a say in "the war on drugs" If drugs were
: > legal there would be less cops, less payoffs and graft. No one is against
: > morality and very few people question the costs/benefits issue when moral
: > purity is involved.
:
: I think people and non-Sun Canadian media are catching on to that. We
: will go legal one day sooner than anticipated. The economic threats
: by the Us are unsettling but we just have to remember that "we are too
: close to ignore (like Holland) and too close to invade (like Columbia : and Afghanistan)" :
: > You argue that a competitive market is a healthy market. That may be true
: > in the economics text books. Unfortunately there are sufficient
: > occurrences of collusion by so-called competitors that most countries have
: > anti-trust laws and fair trade acts. Your mention of the oil companies is
: > probably an example of collusion.
:
: Collusion by definition is an unhealthy, uncompetitive market. A good
: example of good competition in a regulated market is telephone long
: distance. Remember how much it cost 10 years ago??? Now if you look
: you can get under $0.05 a minute all day. :
: > I've never been able to make a beer that I liked except at a u-brew place
: > and the cost then was getting up to that of buying it.
:
: Where do you go? Shop around. You can average $15 a case if you
: look. Myself I cross the border often so I pick up beer duty free.
: $12.99US with $0.10 deposit. :
: > I agree with you about the beer stores, they are a disgrace. From the
: > manufacturer's point of view though it is as perfect a retailing set-up as
: > can had.
:
: Of course. That's why they keep them. Make your competitors retail
: thru you. Make outlets artificially scarce to reduce transport costs.
: Can't beat it.
:
: The only thing they want to do now is wipe out the small breweries
: > which they will do if not watched.
:
: I look toward Alberta and Big Rock Brewery there to see how a small
: brewery flourished in a privatized system with no floor pricing. I
: think as a part owner in a small brewery, the advantages outweigh the
: disadvantages in a private open system. They have more capacity and
: muscle, like a linebacker. We are more nimble like the running back.
: Different positions, both advantageous to any team.
:
: I think there is a place for both in the Ontario market. Now if the
: Big Two start buying small guys to kill them off a la "Pop Shoppe"
: style, then the regulators should come in. That and exclusive
: agreement I think should be banned. They go against an open market
: and are currently illegal in Ontario.
:
: If wider distribution occurred its quite
: > likely that they would lose more market share with people discovering that
: > the stuff they sell is pretty poor stuff. : : True. :
: > Most people are content with the current set-up. As long as it is available
: > they buy. I'm sure that it could be sold morgues and people would be
happy.
:
: True but most people are not leaders, they are led. They don't have
: the knowledge that they are ripped off. The negative of democracy is
: that you put most of the power in the people who don't know what the
: hell they are talking about. You have lawyer/politicians talking
: about Nuclear Reactors in Ontario for instance.
: It is the Canadian ethic to be on the timid side. Same with beer.
: They just don't know better. Most people don't travel. They don't
: know the rest of the world can buy beer at the corner store anytime
: they want. The thought just doesn't even occur to them.
:
: CYA


Joe,
You talk about how phone rates have dropped but you forget a number of
points. one is the "last mile is owned by a very few large companies, the
cost has come down largely because the entry cost into long haul became a
lot cheaper with the advent of fibre optics etc., the new companies had no
large expensive physical plant to maintain i.e. wireline service. You imply
that the oligopoly had to allow completion but I suspect the real fact is
that they couldn't prevent it.
I must read up on Victorian/Edwardian morality. You may be correct. What
little I know about it seems to indicate that they were a bunch of
hypocrites who preached chastity and celibacy while impregnating their
servants and sleeping around with their best friends wives or husbands as
the case may have been. In fairness it would appear from reading that
alcohol was a particularly problem in the 18th and 19th centuries. Whether
"improved" morality or improved living conditions helped to alleviate the
problem I don't know. In any event after years of repression of the
consumption of alcohol the govt now sees it as a source of revenue and is
slightly encouraging people to consume. Its a chuckle to see the moral
streak of our friends to the south who have absolutely no qualms about
collateral damage to non-combatants but scream in high fury about a
president who apparently enjoyed fellatio in the oval office with one or
more women who knew perfectly well what they were doing. I wonder how much
the line "I blew the President" is worth on a job resume? They are also on
the moral high ground vis drugs. I think it is not some much against drugs
but in favour of the anti-drug industry. Its big big business and employs
millions of people. BTW apparently Holland just started selling marijuana
in pharmacies today by prescription $50 for 5 grams I think. I have no idea
if that's a good price or not.

I disagree with you about addiction. I think there are people who are
predisposed to addictions of all types including gambling. I think the
addiction provides them with a gratification of some kind which they cannot
do without whether it is physical or mental is not really relevant.
Basically it gives them a buzz.
You are correct about people having a very parochial view of their world.
I've moved few times in my life and each new community was wrapped up in
its own little set of problems and views of what is right and what is wrong.
I don't think Canadians are timid they are just cautious.


claus

aja_upfront

I never did say that privatizing would guarentee cheaper liquor sales,
even through in my living in Alberta, I did find alcohol generally
cheaper than Ontario if you bought it at the grocery store, or the
super stores like OK liquor. Especially beer.

As for McJobs and the LCBO, I hate to hurt your feelings, but an LCBO
clerk is a glorified McJob. Its all the functions of a McJob (and an
easy one at that) for triple the pay. Like I said before, 15 year
olds who are currently busting their asses at Tim Hortons (hard job)
could do the LCBO job just as good, or even better, and would be
overjoyed to get $10 a hour. LCBO work is a glorified make work
scheme for the politically connected. The LCBO and especially the Big
Breweries are where Old Tories go out to pasture in patronage land.
(Andy Brandt)
That is in my humble opinion why the LCBO was never sold off. Andy
Brandt and his buddy Ernie "Waffle" Eves, the man who never had the
balls to make the tough desicions.
We'll see how whoever wins the election kills the $5 Billion deficit.
I predict a Liberal and Dipper coalition that will last 1 year tops,
and the deficit + increased spending will make something burst.


If you pays peanuts you gets monkeys.

Tim Hortons, McDonalds, Grocery Stores, etc. all get paid less than
LCBO clerks and give superior service, and are quicker at the cash
which is important to me. Plus if we privatized we would get service
innovations like drive thru windows like they have in Nova Scotia and
Alberta. The LCBO union probably would bitch that those windows let
in car fumes and the cold or something.

As far as Molson's


Both are public with majority shares foreign owned. Interbrews
majority holder is a Belgian family.
Private, Foreign, and yet still a monopoly. Hmmmm. Where are the
nationalists when you need them.


Because regretfully Labatt's isn't Canadian. BTW speaking about
shareholders, just try to read the Interbrew Annual Report. Not much
to read. Better yet, read the Brewers Retail Inc. Annual Report.
There isn't one. Not required to disclose anything. Hmm. And a
secretive monopoly too.

I've been to Argentina. I've been thru most of the Americas, Europe,
parts of Asia, and even Russia. Argentina is not full of Englishmen.
They are a minority who live mainly in the Tierra del Fuego area in
the South. I've seen the shit that is Argentina. Its sad because
Aregentina in 1900 was the richest nation on Earth. Argentina still
has that potential. But they caught the socialist bug that hit Canada
in 1968 before us and look at them not. Evita, Menem, Fascists and
grandma banging pots in protest on the street, all because of economic
collapse. That what you get when a country strives for prosperity
with risk.

santa

: >
: > Joe, I don't think privatizing liquor sales will make it much cheaper unless
: > the private companies fire all the current staff and start hiring Macjobs
: > quality people.
:
: I never did say that privatizing would guarentee cheaper liquor sales,
: even through in my living in Alberta, I did find alcohol generally
: cheaper than Ontario if you bought it at the grocery store, or the
: super stores like OK liquor. Especially beer.
:
: As for McJobs and the LCBO, I hate to hurt your feelings, but an LCBO
: clerk is a glorified McJob. Its all the functions of a McJob (and an
: easy one at that) for triple the pay. Like I said before, 15 year
: olds who are currently busting their asses at Tim Hortons (hard job)
: could do the LCBO job just as good, or even better, and would be
: overjoyed to get $10 a hour. LCBO work is a glorified make work
: scheme for the politically connected. The LCBO and especially the Big
: Breweries are where Old Tories go out to pasture in patronage land.
: (Andy Brandt)
: That is in my humble opinion why the LCBO was never sold off. Andy
: Brandt and his buddy Ernie "Waffle" Eves, the man who never had the
: balls to make the tough desicions.
: We'll see how whoever wins the election kills the $5 Billion deficit.
: I predict a Liberal and Dipper coalition that will last 1 year tops,
: and the deficit + increased spending will make something burst.
:
:
: If you pays peanuts you gets monkeys.
:
: Tim Hortons, McDonalds, Grocery Stores, etc. all get paid less than
: LCBO clerks and give superior service, and are quicker at the cash
: which is important to me. Plus if we privatized we would get service
: innovations like drive thru windows like they have in Nova Scotia and
: Alberta. The LCBO union probably would bitch that those windows let
: in car fumes and the cold or something.
:
: As far as Molson's
: > and LAbatt's are concerned they are both now publicly traded companies I
: > understand Labatt is owned by Interbrew a Dutch or Belgian company, Molson's
: > I'm not sure.
:
: Both are public with majority shares foreign owned. Interbrews
: majority holder is a Belgian family.
: Private, Foreign, and yet still a monopoly. Hmmmm. Where are the
: nationalists when you need them. :
: > In my previous existence I lived in what was LAbatt's head office town.
: > Every year they used to have a shareholders meeting under a big marquee and
: > put on a magnificent luncheon for shareholders. People used to buy a couple
: > of shares just for the lunch. All that is gone now. Pity.
:
: Because regretfully Labatt's isn't Canadian. BTW speaking about
: shareholders, just try to read the Interbrew Annual Report. Not much
: to read. Better yet, read the Brewers Retail Inc. Annual Report.
: There isn't one. Not required to disclose anything. Hmm. And a
: secretive monopoly too. :
: > I understand Argentina is/was full of expat Englishmen. Apparently its a
: > totally different world down their we really only see a miniscule, filtered
: > view of all of South America.
:
: I've been to Argentina. I've been thru most of the Americas, Europe,
: parts of Asia, and even Russia. Argentina is not full of Englishmen.
: They are a minority who live mainly in the Tierra del Fuego area in
: the South. I've seen the shit that is Argentina. Its sad because
: Aregentina in 1900 was the richest nation on Earth. Argentina still
: has that potential. But they caught the socialist bug that hit Canada
: in 1968 before us and look at them not. Evita, Menem, Fascists and
: grandma banging pots in protest on the street, all because of economic
: collapse. That what you get when a country strives for prosperity
: with risk.

Joe, you're right LCBO is a Macjob in terms of skill content but it is not
in terms of pay. One can argue whether or not that's good or bad. I don't
drink enough to really care too much about price. Is frank stronich worth
47 million a year to the shareholders, who knows he gets it anyways.
I don't know much about Argentina but I do know that Peron wasn't a
socialist, he was more of a fascist. Again you can argue whether or not
socialism is good, bad or neutral. Wasn't it Churchill who said something
to the effect that democracy wasn't all that great but it was the best until
something else came along?

cheers,
claus

aja_upfront

But Santa, you should care since you are a shareholder in the thing.
Remember those commercials awhile back put out by the unions to save
their politically connected McJobs. "It's your LCBO!"
Every dollar used to overpay a clerk is one less for the Ontario
treasury, and we all know the liquor store is their to give the
treasury that extra 1.5% of revenue.

Is frank stronich worth


Ah, but the MAJOR difference is that Mr. Stronich started his company
from scratch, and he didn't have some monopoly in auto parts. Auto
Parts is super competitive. Plus I believe his daughter runs the
company now, and they still hold significant holdings (around 50%) in
the company. He earned his 47 million a year "the old fashioned way"
and he is my hero.

The only difference between the words socialism and fascism is that
socialism assumes economic control, while fascism assumes control of
both economy and society. You could say that Peron took socialism too
far. The people loved him though and still do, even though most
economists will tell you he screwed the country.

Wasn't it Churchill who said something

The best government is the benevolent dictatorship, but we humans are
not ready for that yet so democracy will do until then.

Jim

santa

: > Joe, you're right LCBO is a Macjob in terms of skill content but it is not
: > in terms of pay. One can argue whether or not that's good or bad. I don't
: > drink enough to really care too much about price.
:
: But Santa, you should care since you are a shareholder in the thing.
: Remember those commercials awhile back put out by the unions to save
: their politically connected McJobs. "It's your LCBO!"
: Every dollar used to overpay a clerk is one less for the Ontario
: treasury, and we all know the liquor store is their to give the
: treasury that extra 1.5% of revenue.
:
: Is frank stronich worth
: > 47 million a year to the shareholders, who knows he gets it anyways.
:
: Ah, but the MAJOR difference is that Mr. Stronich started his company
: from scratch, and he didn't have some monopoly in auto parts. Auto
: Parts is super competitive. Plus I believe his daughter runs the
: company now, and they still hold significant holdings (around 50%) in
: the company. He earned his 47 million a year "the old fashioned way"
: and he is my hero. :
: > I don't know much about Argentina but I do know that Peron wasn't a
: > socialist, he was more of a fascist. Again you can argue whether or not
: > socialism is good, bad or neutral.
:
: The only difference between the words socialism and fascism is that
: socialism assumes economic control, while fascism assumes control of
: both economy and society. You could say that Peron took socialism too
: far. The people loved him though and still do, even though most
: economists will tell you he screwed the country.
:
: Wasn't it Churchill who said something
: > to the effect that democracy wasn't all that great but it was the best until
: > something else came along?
:
: The best government is the benevolent dictatorship, but we humans are
: not ready for that yet so democracy will do until then.
:
: Jim

Jim, As the dude from the wig company said "I'm not only a shareholder, I'm
a user too". I have to disagree with you about union jobs being politically
connected. You might not believe it but one of the biggest problems in
government is the animosity between the unions and the "employer". If you
knew how much money has, is and will be spent on settling differences that
shouldn't occur you would be changing your depends by now.
You are correct about the purpose of the LCBO its a tax source. The people
have agreed that sin is worthy of taxing. Three of the vices are legal and
taxes i.e.. smoking, drinking and gambling. All that really remains is ***
and drugs. Even entertainment is taxed. To save you need to sit quietly,
don't drink, don't smoke, don't gamble and only consort with prostitutes for
recreation. TV and movies are OUT!
Do you begrudge people a living wage if they have the power to get it? You
and I who are the government never had the fibre to demand that our
representatives just shut down the liquor stores rather than accede to the
demands of the employees did we? Whenever there is a beer strike either
manufacturing or distribution the press weeps as if the world was coming to
an end as soon as the beer supply dried up. No one did anything to
influence the beer companies i.e. boycott.
As to Frank, I wonder how much he's ****ed up from the public trough. In
fairness he is not alone in feeding from the govt porkbarrel. He may be
your hero but I'll bet he pays less tax than you do. He's still not 47
million even throwing in his daughter as part of the package.

claus

santa

: I have to disagree with you about union jobs being politically
: > connected. You might not believe it but one of the biggest problems in
: > government is the animosity between the unions and the "employer". If you
: > knew how much money has, is and will be spent on settling differences that
: > shouldn't occur you would be changing your depends by now.
:
: I was referring to the management jobs (non-union). Sorry for the
: confusion. But on that point, ever seen the frenzy when the LCBO is
: hiring??? They literally get thousands of applications per position.
: With those jobs, like in most government jobs, its who you know, at
: least in my town.
:
: Going back to the LCBO management being politically connected. The
: LCBO is notorious for it being a patronage farm. Ask anyone who is at
: Queens Park. Andy Brandt is the man who runs the LCBO. He's the
: former mayor of Sarnia and a past cabinet member MPP in the Davis
: Government. He is referred to as the most powerful non-elected Tory
: in Ontario. He is solely responsible for the privatization being
: abandoned.
: On top of that I've even had someone who works for the LCBO tell me
: that for each patronage management position they create two positions.
: One the patronage job with the title, perks, etc. and the "deputy"
: job that does the real nitty-gritty MBA type work. :
: > You are correct about the purpose of the LCBO its a tax source. The people
: > have agreed that sin is worthy of taxing. Three of the vices are legal and
: > taxes i.e.. smoking, drinking and gambling.
:
: True, its how its collected that is the issue at hand. Myself, I
: think they could maximize tax revenue if they got rid of the province
: owned outlets and franchised them out. Give the retailer like 10%
: profit and make him assume all operating costs. This would eliminate
: the whole retail overhead. This is how most provinces do it.
: Ontario, PEI and Nova Scotia are the only provinces with majority of
: outlets actually run by the province as stand alone operations. Even
: in Nova Scotia the outlets are located in grocery stores. In Sask,
: Manitoba, Quebec outside the main cities, New Brunswick, and
: Newfoundland all do the monopoly this way. BC is privatizing.
: Alberta is private. In Sask, Manitoba, Quebec, BC and Newfoundland
: you can get beer at off licenses or corner stores. Thats at least
: what my handy guide tells me and from what I saw from my 2 month cross
: Canada trip.
: Ontario, Nova Scotia (and PEI) are the odd man out.
:
: I would prefer total privatization, but if tax revenue maximization is
: the concern, this is the way.
:
: Something like 20 states in the US run this way too.
:
: All that really remains is ***
: > and drugs. Even entertainment is taxed. To save you need to sit quietly,
: > don't drink, don't smoke, don't gamble and only consort with prostitutes for
: > recreation. TV and movies are OUT!
:
: Actually in some cities in Canada such as Calgary, Windsor, and even
: Toronto I believe you can get whats called an escort license. (You can
: also get an escort business license) You pay, you go for blood tests
: once every two weeks, and its legal. This way the authorities know
: who is legit, and even Revenue Canada will know who owes what.
: Remember prostitution isn't illegal, just the implicit solicitation in
: public is. That why they use ads in the Toronto Sun and in the phone
: book for business. : :
: > Do you begrudge people a living wage if they have the power to get it? You
: > and I who are the government never had the fibre to demand that our
: > representatives just shut down the liquor stores rather than accede to the
: > demands of the employees did we?
:
: Actually I was hoping that a strike would come and the government
: could lock out the workers for good. Because the government settled
: with 10% pay increases last year rather than go into a strike
: position, that shows that the Tories were never serious about
: privatization. They could have used the strike as justification for
: immediate (like in one day) privatization.
:
: As for living wage, I say if you can get away with ripping off your
: employer go for it. Just the thing is that we are the employer so we
: are hurt here. I am not angry at the employees, they are just milking
: the cow, I am angry at the LCBO management who are more concerned with
: patronage and with political favours to donators like the beer
: companies than with the economics at hand.
:
:
: Whenever there is a beer strike either
: > manufacturing or distribution the press weeps as if the world was coming to
: > an end as soon as the beer supply dried up. No one did anything to
: > influence the beer companies i.e. boycott.
:
: True. We are Canadian. We are a lot of good things but as you said
: before we are cautious people. Thinking out of the box is not a
: national characteristic. Just see how jealous Canadians get on
: whoever is successful in the country.
:
: On a side note, you might be aware that Ontario has like a $5 billion
: deficit. That on top of $2.2 budgeted for the government to earn from
: asset sales. We all know which assets are worth $2.2 billion and it's
: not the 401. Even if the Libs or the Dippers win, they will have to
: deal with it. With their promises that cost $$$ even eliminating tax
: cuts will not be enough. Do you think they will sell the thing out of
: desperation?
:
: I doubt it myself. I would expect the NDP before the LIberals to do
: it. The NDP could screw the union, but the Liberals are the ultimate
: big brother party. I mean these folks even want to ban smoking in
: public. The sin would stop them from privatizing. But then the
: alcohol lobby has not been kind to the Liberals.... : :
: > As to Frank, I wonder how much he's ****ed up from the public trough.
:
: Tons no doubt, but he's also paid tons in taxes. Kinda lose, lose. I
: don't know if you are aware of auto industry politics but basically
: the big car companies have discovered that they can blackmail and
: extort from governments. They promise to build a high wage, high jobs
: plant in the area only of certain conditions are met. Why do you
: think they build new plants in Alabama and Texas, for the highly
: educated workforce? : : In
: > fairness he is not alone in feeding from the govt porkbarrel.
:
: It's a fact of life in the whole world. Heck in Quebec, there whole
: industrial base is dependant on sweetheart tax breaks and pork
: barreling. (Biotech, Aerospace, Bombardier)
: : He may be
: > your hero but I'll bet he pays less tax than you do.
: He's still not 47
: > million even throwing in his daughter as part of the package.
:
: To be honest, as an investor in Magna (I own shares for the RRSP) he
: makes money, I make money. He gets his cut of 47 million, I get my
: cut. The more he earns, the more I earn. Don't you just love
: capitalism!

Joe as to hiring, there is the same type of frenzy at Ford or GM or Honda
for non-management types. As to so-called managers, who you know helps.
Unfortunately the Civil Service has hiring rules that are so complex to
ensure fairness and prevent the "spoils" system that exists in the US that
they are far, far too complicated. Senior jobs are the payoff for faithful
service. It is a reward in case you get turfed out just because the
electorate doesn't like you. It is not right but that's the way it is. In
the case of Andy Brandt he's the fall-guy if the shit hits the fan that's
what he gets paid for.
I've read some reports from some people that things aren't as rosy in wild
rose country as they are portrayed by the love "ralf" club. The private
liquor business is not an unqualified success apparently. It may be cheaper
but if you added 8% PST it wouldn't and the selection, availability and
service ****. Who knows for sure?
In Manitoba beer is available in motels/hotels etc. that have off-sales
licenses. It is a provincial quirk and was one of the ways that the
government that repealed prohibition patronized their voters. At one time
prior to about 1957 or so the only drink you could legally buy in a public
place was beer in a "beer parlor". It was men only, no food of any kind was
allowed and the hours of opening were shorter than those of the post office.
About 1956 a commission was established with I think John Bracken as its
head. He was the premier that brought in prohibition during WW1. He was
smart enough to see there was money in them thar spirits so he recommended
the establishment of ****tail lounges (mixed) and beverage rooms (mixed
where you could buy food, watch entertainment and generally act civilized.
It worked gangbusters. There are many, many hotels/motels in Manitoba that
exist today only because they sell beer, wine and spirits. They have to be
reasonably well appointed and kept to retain their license to print money so
they usually play by the rules. The manufacture of shine is far less than
it used to be and that which is made is of good quality generally unlike
some of the poison that used to be turned out up in the Inter-lake country.
I was unaware that some of the more progressive cities were in the "escort"
business but it stands to reason if you think about it. If you can't stop
it, regulate it and tax it.

As to the deficit I think the 2.2. billion is only what we can see above the
water line. I suspect it is a lot higher but through creative accounting
practices a lot of costs have been disguised as operating rather than
capital costs. If oil-can Ernie is re-elected I don't think he' do much of
anything until he figures out what the growth in his ear is. That may take
four years more. There isn't much left to be sold. Didn't the PCs pass a
law requiring a balanced budget? What happened to that? Once everything is
sold off there's one of two things going to happen if we want it, more taxes
or less of "it". Take your pick. The lunch was never free. Besides what's
wrong with the taxpayers paying for certain things as long as we all pay
proportionately?
He had better pray for a warm winter because if we have a cold one and power
consumption goes crazy the brown stuff is in the fan. Already the knives
are out, the OPP who report to the AG I believe have a crate of eggs on
their face and this is just openers. Ernie is a born again capital
punishment freak all of a sudden which indicates to me that they are
starting to circle the wagons.
Your right on about the big auto makers. They have learned how to fool the
govt. However what govt has the guts to say to the voters "some of you will
never work because a. there aren't enough jobs, b. you are not
intellectually or physically equipped to work for a living." No government
is going to tell the taxpayers that the work ethic ****s and some people
would be far far better of pursuing a hedonistic lifestyle at taxpayers
expense.

In reference to Quebec you left out dairy and chicken farming. Quebec is
why you are paying over $2 a litre for milk.

I don't know Frank personally but I don't think much of his public
management style. My sense he isn't much different from the old day robber
barons of the 19th century like John D. and Henry Ford neither of whom I
have or had much respect for. I hope your shares are making money because
my mutual shares are tanking.

claus

aja_upfront

Santa,

Had a good weekend?


Ever see 5,000 people lined up for 2 days in -15C conditions just for
an application??? Thats how big the frenzy is. Where else can you
walk in with NO useful skills and only a high school diploma and earn
$30 a hour?

As to so-called managers, who you know helps.

Of course. I was just confirming what we all already knew.

And the only way too cut through the complexity is to have someone on
the inside. At least thats what my civil service friends tell me.

Senior jobs are the payoff for faithful

Agreed

In the case of Andy Brandt he's the fall-guy if the shit hits the
fan that's


Of course if you had a liquor monopoly, how hard would that be to
screw up in the first place. You have no competition for a high
margin, coveted good. Its like if you were the CEO of the Ontario
cigarette retailing monopoly. (don't think it isn't coming) You would
need to be an absolute moron to screw it up.

First they don't have PST in Alberta. Only GST like here. It's "The
Alberta Advantage." I used to live in Alberta and I'm a beer lover so
I might know a thing or two about the beer scene in Alberta. There is
about 200 retail outlets withing Calgary city limits. (I'm not making
this up) The city has 900,000 residents. Toronto at 2,500,000 has
like 20-30 outlets. There is no limits to the number of outlets in a
city. The market dictates. Of course zoning does apply so you don't
have liquor stores next to schools. Anyways in Alberta booze (no
differentiation between booze) can only be sold in stand alone store
that only sell booze, but they can be located in malls as long as they
are stand alone. It can also be sold in Hotels/Off Licenses, and in
rural areas, the licensee outlets from the rural areas were
grandfathered in. These are in general stores, gas stations, and
grocery stores. Not many of those left. With such variety you will
get a variety of prices (no minimum pricing) service, and selection.
There are wine boutiques in Calgary that have thousands of bottles
available in elegant stores in posh areas with only attentive (and
beautiful) people working there. There are also places that are in
mini malls, hole in the wall, that only sell Blue, CC, Seagrams and
are dirty and staffed by illegible people. There are also liquor
superstores that are next to grocery stores that are a big box
environment with big selection, low prices, and no service. There are
also convenient stores that charge an arm and a leg. (Banff)
In all, the variety of stores in general is very great just like any
other retail enterprise.
As for prices, they are the same as Ontario minus PST. A little
cheaper at the superstores (Liquor Barn) a little more at the
neighbourhood store, than Ontario. The selection is far greater. If
they don't have it, they will order you anything. The service varies
by store. Oh, and as the product price goes up, the price
differential between Alberta and Ontario is magnified because of
Alberta flat taxes. Think Dom for $95 a bottle instead of $150.


Same in Sask. as in Manitoba except they can sell liquor too. In
Ontario we don't even have what they have in Canada's conservative
heartland.

The manufacture of shine is far less than

I don't know Winnipeg, but in Ontario it's mostly smuggled. For wine,
they sell juice in pails. Its all ready to go. Just pour the juice,
wait, filter and enjoy. More people do this, and give the product to
friends and family, than buy wine in Ontario.

With cities now having "Amsterdam style" marijuana cafes, look at
their "regulation" next.


Agreed.

If oil-can Ernie is re-elected I don't think he' do much of


Agreed.

That may take


The shit will hit the fan before. The banks and bond rating services
will catch any sneaky move. The bond services hold Ontario's debt so
they of course are the first to know.

There isn't much left to be sold. Didn't the PCs pass a


Yes, but the rule states that only the budget must be averaged out
over 5 years to have no deficit. Doesn't mention yearly deficit.
This was so they don't get screwed if the economy tanked. Trouble is
Oil Can Ernie used this law for neferious means. If he gets elected,
the short term gain will catch up to him.

Once everything is

We even handed over driver testing this month to Serco, a British
firm. Driver Testing is now like the license offices, private.

Tell me something Santa, am I the only one to see something wrong with
private driver testing? I'm a free market fan, but even I see the
lack of accountability here.
This and they wouldn't sell the lick-bo. Hmm, those folks at lcbo are
mucho powerful compared to the Transport folks. But then Transport
was always the "ugly duckling" ministry.

Take your pick. The lunch was never free. Besides what's

Agreed.


Ernie screwed up that one royally. Not 100% his fault, fallout of
Enron hit the whole world, but he is at least 50% responsible. Gas is
expensive, coal is dirty, hydropower is tapped out, wind is 15 years
away, and nuclear is a fiscal albatross. We have to bite the bullet,
but caps that are politically popular are a fiscal disaster. Problem
is that people don't understand hydro. They understand health and
education, but hydro is a mystery. They just flick the switch. We
need better PR, and we need someone to lay out our options. If we
fall over the point of no return, all we could do is sell the grid,
and then a natural monopoly (as opposed to the LCBO) is privately
controlled.

Already the knives


Elaborate on this. BTW I think the wording of the Capital Punishment
statement is key. Ernie said, "death for killers of cops." A cop
hasn't been killed in a long time. Where did this statement come
from? We both know.


People much smarter than you, I, or anyone in our gov't know this and
they work for the car companies.


How could I forget! I remember $2.49 for 4L in Alberta. Its $3.79 in
Ontario. I wonder why?

By the way, the ag boards are probably more sacred than the LCBO to
the Tories. They are of course patronage farms, but they also
guarantee the essential rural vote. On the world scale, we are very
good in this area. The EU and the US make ag subsidies into a
science. Ever pay $2.50US for a loaf? You will in the US. Mind you
meat is CHEAP in the US, but grain is very expensive, sugar is so
expensive they use corn syrup instead for food sweetening, and foreign
citrus is unheard if (such as clementines) in the US most of the year.
The EU is just ridiculous.

I didn't tank, but my returns are just a little over inflation. Not
the 15%-20% like in 1999. I was always scared of tech, and I got
bullish on commodities, and still am. Magna itself floats up and down
but does grow.

JB

santa

: Santa,
:
: Had a good weekend?
:
: JB

Joe, yep a good weekend for me is waking up on Monday morning,

I've cut the stuff in the middle for the sake of brevity.

There were apparently line ups like that at one of the car plants. It may
have been Honda in Alliston a little town NW of Toronto. You are somewhat
right about the civil service. The rule is look after the guy over you. It
doesn't matter whether he is right or wrong just cover his ass. This leads
to all kinds of bizarre hiring procedures which favour obvious brown-nosers.

I was wondering how the no deficit rule worked actually it is a no rules
rule. Sneaky!
Driver testing will now become a pork barrel like licensing is. I know if
you want a driver's license you go to the right driving school for a couple
of lessons and voila you have a test real soon. If you walk in off the
street I understand it takes months. Here again MOT's problem was staffing.
There is no easy way to hire temporary staff or to manage the workload, to
hire a temp took hours and hours of cover-your-ass business case and getting
a full time position was even worse. The beauty of outsourcing is that it
moves a body off the headcount and the salary costs into a different column
which all looks good in the house when they stand up to say " we reduced the
civil service by nnn positions last year". I don't know if there is
something wrong with private driver testing it should be pretty straight
forward and the results accountable. The problem with any of these
transfers of function is that there are no metrics in place to measure their
success. How successful are hospitals and doctors no-one knows cause there
aren't any consistent measures. As to the LCBO I don't care if its sold or
not as long as there is choice easy access and I have the price.
Real bread is about $2 to $3 a loaf where I live 99cent bread is a loss
leader as is cheap milk. If you check the price that farmers get for fluid
milk and assume some costs added I think you'll find it costs more than it
sells for. the same with wonderbread. They're both loss-leaders. I think
milk marketing boards are a provincial matter but the feds have a hand in
setting tariffs to protect Quebec in particular.
The LCBO will order you anything you want by the case. The selection is set
by market forces. Where I live there is a liquor store that has meters of
shelving stocked with cheap vodka in plastic bottles and hundreds of bottle
of black velvet rye one of the worlds most noxious drinks. Guess those are
the big sellers in that neighbourhood. If it doesn't sell they don't stock
it. Thank heaven some people where I live like real beer otherwise the LCBO
would be full of Blu which I think is fine for de-skunking the cat but you
wouldn't want to drink it.

Apparently there are a number of criminal cases that have been dropped
because the crown acknowledged that the evidence was obtained by wire tap
and that it was either "***ed-up" or fabricated or tainted in some fashion.
There was mention of it in the G&M last week but I haven't seen anything
since.

Ernie is busy playing to the gallery as to capital punishment. Everyone
know cops are better people than the rest of us mere mortals and everyone
agrees that law and order is motherhood even as they park in the "no
stopping" zone.
MY guess is Ernie is going to win again. Both sides are busy badmouthing the
other guy. I had hoped that Dalton despite the handicap of his name would be
smart enough to tell us what he could do if elected not what the other guy
was doing wrong. Ernie wants to go into the immigration business now just
to make sure any Ontario immigrants are good people who will vote PC when
they can vote I guess. I still think the election campaign is going to get
down and dirty. Its the only thing going right now to fill the papers so
we should hear every detail ad nauseum. In the end it won't matter the
taxpayer is going to pay more.

I don't know about you but I'm sure there is no-one smarter than me. I
always have an opinion even if there's no knowledge behind it.

Funny you should mention the EU there is a multi-page spread in today's G&M
about farm subsidies. Interesting numbers looks like the farmers are doing
pretty good everywhere.

You have a good day

claus

aja_upfront

after the guy over you. It

This I assume is because the civil service develops "factions?" I
assume the thinking is that if you help your boss get promoted, you
move up as he moves up the ladder. This of course happens in the
large corporations as well, but it is still dubious at best.


The Tories have a way of developing loopholes in their legislation to
save them in the short term when the sht hits the fan. Of course from
the condition of the budget currently, I think all parties/whoever
wins are delaying the inevidable. Since tax hikes are illegal without
a referendum (except for tobacco increases/that loophole again) and
everything is cut to the bone already, more sales are coming. They
will try to sell off Darlinton Nuclear, but of course Hydro has a $35B
debt itself!


In some towns, thats what everyone does for many government functions
such as business licenses. In that regard, I think the privatization
of driver testing will help eliminate that.

Always was throughout the whole ministry, not just testing. They are
the runt ministry of the major ones in the Tory party. They are also
the most parochial and behind the times of the ministries. That have
institutionalized and set methods of doing things, and don't take
kindly to either criticism or how other jurisdictions do things (even
if its better). They keep most everything including policy inhouse.
If your not "with them" your opinion doesn't matter. They are still
attached to ideas and scientific methods that were refuted 20 years
ago. Ontario is like a time warp in road building and policy.

The problem with any of these


Like i said before, i found it ironic that we are world pioneers in
privatization in driver testing, but something like the LCBO that 99%
of the world has as a private system is under lock and key in Ontario.

Agreed. New Hampshire for instance has public only liquor stores.
Only hard liquor though. They also have generally the cheapest prices
in the US of any state. They do this to attract out of state
business, which for a small state like them is a bigger part of the
business than the local business. They don't have sales tax or income
tax either. The New Hampshire government does this as a source of
revenue. Mind you, I think they could franchise the outlets out, but
this system is great for the citizens of New Hampshire. $9.99 for a
750mL of Canadian Club, and profits used to fund a low tax regime. I
can live with that.

As for the LCBO, if we privatized I think we can agree that the price
would stay +/- 10% of the current price, and that access would GREATLY
increase.


I was referring to Wonder Bread in the US being $1.79US a loaf. That
is much more than in Canada. Milk in the US is $2.79US a gallon.
Same as in Canada after conversion.

If you check the price that farmers get for fluid

Agreed.


The privates would also be able to order what you needed and what the
public wanted. If we privatized don't forget, the suppliers would
stay the same. As for Blue deskunking a cat, agreed. I don't like
over-carbonated corn beer, but its the flagship beer of the foreign
cartel master so it will always be with us.


The fabricated evidense for a marijuana case. When will the cops
realize that they lost marijuana. It will be legal one way or another
(probably Supreme Court) They are pissed because this is a loss of
authority. Its a loss of lots of overtime too. Marijuana is a major
component in the criminal system no matter what the cops say. As the
older generation dies off, just like the same-*** thing, the laws will
go away.


Our mascot is the Mountie. Need I say more. Even white trash in
Canada respect police.


It will probably go minority government my guess. Either Lib or PC.
The new government will fall in less than a year. The parties are
just too far apart.
If Pupatello was leader instead of Dalton, I would give the Libs more
credit, but the Libs are too big brother for me. The Tories flip-flop
too much, (infighting between the everpresent red tory bridage who
don't get that their version of conservatism is bull and the true
blue, but sometimes scary blue tories) The Dippers are communists.

Ernie wants to go into the immigration business now just

Ask any immigrant (me) and they are the biggest fans of the Ontario
immigration policy. They (we) hate the family class welfare queen
immigrants who are just imported liberal votes. The making immigrants
stay away from Toronto is good for the provincial economy but
immigrants hate it, even though the rest of the province is more
affordable for newcomers.

I still think the election campaign is going to get


Agreed


True

Thats where I saw it.

cheers
jb