david_l_simpson

You're right to refer to the Federalist Papers. Where the
Constitution has not been amended, proper construction is based on the


As far as "democratizing" our system, we have a federal system, not a
national government in Washington, and we don't need nor do we want
these days "national" initiatives, referenda, or recalls. Not
directly associated with Washington. (The appeal to the Vulgar Vote
for direct election of the President and Vice President naturally was
made after the Gore coup failed after Bush won in 2000. It was no
surprise Hillary Clinton was among the first to make such an appeal.)

Even though the Constitution has routinely been violated since the New
Deal, with widespread popular support, it doesn't mean that even if we
have a de facto unitary nation-state rather than a federal
nation-state, it remains de jure a federal nation-state (and republic)
and smarter people insist it either be kept that way or that any
changes be made official -- through the amendment process.

(Actually, a Constitutional convention is long overdue and would be
welcome.)


Dave Simpson

martin w. smith

I agree, but there remains the possibility to vote out that which has
been voted in, so the name democracy still applies, if only just.

martin

--
Martin Smith email: mws@computas.com
Vollsveien 9 tel. : +47 6783 1188
P.O. Box 482 mob. : +47 932 48 303
1327 Lysaker, Norway

martin w. smith

Walter, please note for future reference that I was defending America in
the message you are replying to, and you are bashing America.

martin

--
Martin Smith email: mws@computas.com
Vollsveien 9 tel. : +47 6783 1188
P.O. Box 482 mob. : +47 932 48 303
1327 Lysaker, Norway

74276___3616

Obviously, Martin, you'd like to convey the distortion that a
correction as to your invalid labeling of the U.S. as a
"representative democracy" is "bashing America." Whether that
distortion is the truth is another matter.

The search for truth requires the courage to accept it.

NTReader v0.37w(P)/Beta (Registered) in conjunction with Net-Tamer.

martin w. smith

Don't duck the issue, Walter. You continue to accuse me of America
bashing simply because I criticize the US government. Here you claim
that the US government is not a democracy: "But democracy is not an
appropriate political label for a nation [America] that, on the federal
level, abrogates the popular vote for President by way of the Electoral
College and that prohibits legislation by referenda."

Your America bashing (by your own definition) has nothing to do with me
calling the US government a representative democracy. Your America
bashing is your astonishing implication above that America is not a
democracy at all.

Neverhteless, America *is* a representative democracy, because in
America we elect representatives to vote in our place in Congress and in
state legislatures. We also elect representatives to vote for President
in the electoral college. I agree that we should eliminate that
electoral college system, and I agree that we should have more direct
democracy via referendums and initialtives, and I agree that it should
be harder for legislatures and Congress to overturn results of
referendums and initiatives, but representative democracy means
proposing and passing legislation by vote of elected representatives,
and that is exactly what we have.

You're an America basher because you criticize the US government like I
do. That conclusion is arrived at by using your own definition of
America basher. The search for truth requires the courage to accept it.

martin

--
Martin Smith email: mws@computas.com
Vollsveien 9 tel. : +47 6783 1188
P.O. Box 482 mob. : +47 932 48 303
1327 Lysaker, Norway

74276___3616

You're circular argumentation, with the distortions of sophistry in
tow, is not unlike a dog chasing his tail, in terms of it's
effectiveness, Martin..... ;-)

The search for truth requires the courage to accept it.

NTReader v0.37w(P)/Beta (Registered) in conjunction with Net-Tamer.

martin w. smith

I understand you are using your standard last line of defense again,
Walter, which is to ridicule me. Nevertheless my ****ysis is correct. If
you still claim I am an America basher, then so are you.

The search for truth requires the courage to accept it.

martin

--
Martin Smith email: mws@computas.com
Vollsveien 9 tel. : +47 6783 1188
P.O. Box 482 mob. : +47 932 48 303
1327 Lysaker, Norway

74276___3616

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/print/us.html

[......]

Government type: federal republic; strong democratic tradition

Walter Scott on Fri, 4 Jul Read Federalist Papers #10, #38 and #43
2003 16:12:07 +0000 (UTC) to determine James Madison's view of what
America was to be and why. The U.S.
retains some measure of democracy; more
at the state and local level than in the
federal. But democracy is not an
appropriate political label for...

The search for truth requires the courage to accept it.

NTReader v0.37w(P)/Beta (Registered) in conjunction with Net-Tamer.

martin w. smith

What is your point, Walter? Spell it out for me. Is it your claim that
America is not one of the legitimate types of democracy?

I claim that it is, because it is a representative democracy. It isn't
functioning very well as a democracy, but it is one. A republic is a
representative democracy, ie a republic is a country without a king or
queen, usually governed by elected representatives of the people and a
president. That is from the Cambridge dictionary, and it certainly
applies to America. We elect representatives to vote on our behalf. The
federal part just means that the fifty states agree to be bound by the Constitution.


--
Martin Smith email: mws@computas.com
Vollsveien 9 tel. : +47 6783 1188
P.O. Box 482 mob. : +47 932 48 303
1327 Lysaker, Norway

74276___3616

My "point" was and is what was previously stated, Martin. If you don't
get it, you don't get it. "A republic is a representative democracy,
i.e. a republic is a country without a king or queen, usually governed
by elected representatives of the people and a president?" Would tell
us -- all who are reading this thread -- how the PRC is a democracy?
This could be entertaining.... ;-)

The search for truth requires the courage to accept it.

NTReader v0.37w(P)/Beta (Registered) in conjunction with Net-Tamer.