Brett cannon 2012-04-10 16:18:09
python-dev Summary for 2004-06-01 through 2004-06-15
This is a summary of traffic on the `python-dev mailing list`_ from June
01, 2004 through June 15, 2004. It is intended to inform the wider
Python community of on-going developments on the list. To comment on
anything mentioned here, just post to `comp.lang.python`_ (or email
email@example.com which is a gateway to the newsgroup) with a
subject line mentioning what you are discussing. All python-dev members
are interested in seeing ideas discussed by the community, so don’t
hesitate to take a stance on something. And if all of this really
interests you then get involved and join `python-dev`_!
count is correct?).
To contact me, please send email to brett at python.org ; I do not have
the time to keep up on comp.lang.python and thus do not always catch
follow-ups posted there.
All summaries are archived at http://www.python.org/dev/summary/ .
Please note that this summary is written using reStructuredText_ which
can be found at http://docutils.sf.net/rst.html . Any unfamiliar
punctuation is probably markup for reST_ (otherwise it is probably
regular expression syntax or a typo =); you can safely ignore it,
although I suggest learning reST; it’s simple and is accepted for `PEP
markup`_ and gives some perks for the HTML output. Also, because of the
wonders of programs that like to reformat text, I cannot guarantee you
will be able to run the text version of this summary through Docutils_
as-is unless it is from the `original text file`_.
… _PEP Markup: http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0012.html
The in-development version of the documentation for Python can be found at
http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel/ and should be used when looking up any
documentation on new code; otherwise use the current documentation as
http://docs.python.org/ . PEPs (Python Enhancement Proposals) are
located at http://www.python.org/peps/ . To view files in the Python
CVS online, go to http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/python/
.. Reported bugs and suggested patches can be found at the SourceForge_
The `Python Software Foundation`_ is the non-profit organization that
holds the intellectual property for Python. It also tries to forward
the development and use of Python. But the PSF_ cannot do this without
donations. You can make a donation at
http://python.org/psf/donations.html . Every penny helps so even a
small donation (you can donate through PayPal or by check) helps.
… _python-dev: http://www.python.org/dev/
… _SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=5470
… _python-dev mailing list:
… _comp.lang.python: http://groups.google.com/groups?q=comp.lang.python
… _Docutils: http://docutils.sf.net/
… _reStructuredText: http://docutils.sf.net/rst.html
… _Python Software Foundation: http://python.org/psf/
… _last summary:
… _original text file:
Wow, two summaries written in a single week. H*** has not frozen over,
don’t worry; work has just not started yet. =)
New PEP on bytecode verification
As it stands now, unless you are running a debug build of Python, there
are no checks that the bytecode being executed by the interpreter is
valid. It is not terribly difficult to crash the interpreter with
blatently invalid bytecode.
In an attempt to resolve this, `PEP 330`_ has been written in hopes of
coming up with a Python module in the stdlib that can have bytecode
passed to it and attempt to perform some basic verification on it.
… _PEP 330: http://python.org/peps/pep-0330.html
– `PEP 330 Python bytecode verification
2.4a1 coming up soon
Python 2.4a1 should be coming out early July. If you have some bugs or
patches you want to see in 2.4 then read Anthony’s announcement for
general guidelines on how to go about this.
Jeremy Hylton pointed out that since the AST branch did not make it in
before this announcement it would not be included in 2.4 (thus
guaranteeing a sprint topic for PyCON 2005). Generator expressions
*are* in this alpha with late bindings. If late bindings work out for
you, or if you have an explicit use case in working code for early
bindings, please speak up.
– `pre-announce: Python 2.4a1 is about a month away
The shaky courtship of 2.4 and function decorators
With 2.4a1 ominously approaching on the horizon, Guido asked what people
thought of holding off on including function decorators for 2.5. Some
people said to put it in and if that meant using Guido’s then so be it.
Others said to wait and let Guido have more time since he wanted to
consider Java 1.5’s syntax.
Guido said he would ask at EuroPython_ for more opinions.
… _EuroPython: http://www.europython.org/
– `functions decorators in 2.4?
– `Dropping decorator syntax for 2.4?
Why Stackless is not about to be incorporated into the core
Someone asked why Stackless_ is still not part of the Python core.
After a bunch of talking, Guido spelled out a couple of reasons. One
was a lack of a clear spec; if it is not obvious how it will behave it
can’t go in. Another was whether it could reasonably work on Jython;
Python the language needs to be portable enough to be coded in C or
Java. A third point was not wanting to rely on platform hacks in order
for something to work; Stackless doesn’t use the C stack and that can
complicate things (and Guido put longjmp() from ISO C in this category
so don’t ever think of using it in a patch).
In other words Stackless is not going to be integrated into the core at
… _Stackless: http://www.stackless.com/
– `Stackless Python
– `Re: Stackless Python
Remember, some stdlib modules are maintained elsewhere
Greg Ward reminded python-dev that optparse is maintained as Optik_ and
as a separate project. Some other modules are also maintained like
this, so it is something to keep an eye out for if you are writing
patches or reporting a bug.
… _Optik: http://optik.sf.net/
– `Reminder: optparse.py is auto-generated
Python Bug Day
The First Python Bug Day took place on June 5th, led by AM Kuchling.
The end results are listed at
http://www.python.org/moin/PythonBugDayStatus and look very good.
Since SF troubles cropped up during the day (both frustration with
people not being able to add files to bugs and patches created by other
people and SF CVS going down), discussion of getting off of SF came up
(this was also mentioned in several other minor threads). The desire to
host off-site were brought up, but the issue of having enough volunteers
to handle the load of managing a CVS or Subbversion repository was
brought up. Also moving over to Roundup or GForge on a server under our
control was also brought up. Nothing looks like it is going to happen
any time soon, though (at least not until 2.4 is out the door).
The next Bug Day has been tentatively scheduled for July 10.
– `Python bug day?
– `Bug day outcome
What it takes to have something to support weak references
(should have been in last summary)
Why don’t strings and such support weak references? Turns out that
variable-sized objects (i.e., tp_itemsize specified) cannot support them
without direct support hard-coded in the struct. Since it would require
more space and extra code for deallocation (and thus incur a performance
penalty) for such common types as strings and tuples, it was decided
that for such an infrequently used ability (at least in this case) it
would not be worth the cost of adding support.
– `Why aren’t more things weak referencable
The list was reminded that in the future at some point, comparisons
between heterogeneous types will raise TypeError except for ‘==’ and
‘!=’. This brought up the discussion of comparing floats to longs.
Guido said he is going to make sure that they can still be compared
without issue (part of the reason true division was introduced). People
talked about the best way to go about it, but it was mostly just talk
since this is not about to go into the core.
– `Comparing heterogeneous types
Finalizing Decimal type
Facundo Batista posted an email summing up the last nagging features for
the Decimal type and `PEP 327`_. He said he would post an updated PEP
(which he has done) and get input from Tim Peters. Looks like this is
… _PEP 327: http://python.org/peps/pep-0327.html
– `Decimal issues – Conclusion
Free Icon books
Tim Peters posted links to links to PDFs of three significant books on
Icon_ (see the email for the links).
Why would Python programmers care about the Icon programming language?
Well, Python got the idea of generators from Icon. Plus it never hurts
to know more languages, if anything just for new ideas for Python or to
be able to emphatically state Python is better. =)
Also, the book, ‘The Icon Programming Language’, is essentially the
*only* book describing how a scripting language that is non-trivial is
… _Icon: http://www.cs.arizona.edu/icon/
– `Free Icon books
Documenting undocumented C API functions
Thomas Heller updated Doc/tools/undoc_symbols.py (which finds out what C
API code is undocumented) and ran it. The list of undocumented C code
is listed at
.. If you would like to help with documenting, helping with documenting
what is listed at the wiki would be great.
– `undocumented api functions
Tool for side-by-side diffs outputted in HTML
http://www.python.org/sf/914575 has a patch that adds the necessary code
and a tool script for side-by-side diffs using difflib that output in a
nice HTML format. While the code has not been accepted yet, I
personally know how useful this functionality can be so I thought I
would just let people know about the code.
And if you find this code helpful, then doing a code review and adding a
comment on the patch would be helpful in getting the code accepted,
especially after the author gets his next patch uploaded.
– `Side by Side Differencing Patch
– `HTML side by side diff patch 914575
Removing CLRFs in PCbuild directory
Martin v. Lowis fixed the vcproj files in the PCbuild directory to have
the proper line endings. Problem is that you must run “cvs update -A“
on your PCbuild directory to add the -kb tag on the files since it is a
– `Changing PCBuild/*.vcproj to text mode
Bounding free list creation for ints and such ain’t easy
Bounding the size of the memory used by ints and other built-ins that
have a custom allocator was brought up. The suggestion of moving them
to pymalloc was suggested, but it was pointed out it would make it
slower and waste more space on some platforms. And the ideas on how to
deal with this all seemed difficult. No code was committed in the end.
– `Object free lists
How to search the python-dev archives
One idea is to use gmane.org to do your searches since they index the
mailing list. The one that I (and apparently Tim Peters) use is to do a
Google search with “site:mail.python.org python-dev“ at the beginning.
I actually search the python-dev archives using the same technique;
“site:www.python.org “python-dev Summary”“.
– `python-dev archive searching ?