artimador mog roith /|\\

Well first off, ordination is retarded and I agree with you, however, in
this christian world ordination in pagan ways is an essential key to getting
respect and recognition where it is due, and it is essential for the ability
to prove our equality to christians. By being able to be ordained we can
perform handfastings and other *legal* ceremonies. If it wasnt' for our
government, influenced so by christianity, ordination wouldn't be
nessescary... ones religious validity can only bejuged by the subject and by
his gods. Thankfully I live in texas where ordination means nothing. In the
state of Texas one can legally marry two people of the oposite sex as long
as that person is the head or leader of a religious group(yes it can be a
coven ot three persons and the priest or priestess can marry without ordination).


In our country on can go get a 501(c)(non-profit religious corporation) for
about $30 and then you have your own tax exempt religion. As head of that
religion you then can ordain anyone you wish, including yourself. So that's
how it starts. And no, not everyone in wicca is ordained. To recieve
ordination you have to get it from the head or governing body of any 501(c)
non-profit religious corporation, and then depending on your state you have
to register with the state.


I doubt it... someones ordination doesn't mean anything and the only power
you recieve is recognition and renown(deserved or not)reputation, along with
the ability to marry


Celtic Wicca is wicca with the celtic pantheon thrown in, as you know.
Celtic Wiccans usually honor which ever of the Tuatha De Danaan, Welsh
dieties, and Gaulish dieties that they choose. Why, maybe because the god
forms choose them, or because of their celtic roots but I think that if
someone were to honor those celtic gods that they would honor them in the
closest thing to their original form(neodruidism). If that were true then
why don't you worship the Christian god because of it's potency? Potency,
wheather you believe that a god's power depends on the level of "neglect" or
not, is not the idea behind Neopaganism. Neopaganism's design is to
spiritually feed ourselves with a rich religion based off a solid
mythological/archaological foundation that is reconstructed by modern
people. If Celtic Wicca serves this purpose for some then that is why they
honor Celtic gods, because it works for them spiritually. As to the celtic
covens being in america... well the celtic land that still identifies itself
as celtic is still under the riegn of Celtic Catholic Dogma. Most of modern
western europe has strayed from it's celtic origins and have been, me
thinks, covered over with other culture that is just as rich as the former.
America is a revolutionary country that is tied to no roots, save those of
native american tribes, and thus is filled with people of all backgrounds.
This leads people to believe that they can bring their roots to america.
Thus you get a new spirituality and you throw in the tuatha because you have
a 1/4 or so irish blood and you think that you are recreating the old
religion, based off of shoddy scholarship (dj conway, edain mccoy).


The comment I made about Isaac pouring large sums of money into ADF was
referring to when he was creating it.


(very

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primitive jim

Filing with state and federal government is one thing, being written down as in
the traditions family tree is quite another thing.


All the ones as he have spent large sums. Searles himself has spent a fortune
trying to become pope.

david monks

I'm not sure of the American civil system, but in most European countries,
it's possible to obtain a civil wedding. This means that the country
recognises the marriage as legal, and the laws of that country pertaining to
property, children and family apply. If the American system is anything
like that, then I understand you to be saying, the need for ordination to
carry out weddings is purely within the group, whether it be wicca or some
other grouping. It hardly matters, in that case, whether the celebrant of
the wedding is legally recognised or not. I would imagine that in most
European countries it's not so easy to obtain powers to conduct weddings
that would be legally recognised. Nor would it be so easy to have a
religion formally recognised either by the state.

(As far as I am aware, Ireland's constitution recognises only Catholicism,
Anglicanism, Presbyterianism, Methodism and Judaism as legal religions.
That doesn't mean that others are banned, just not legally recognised. That
being so, the adherents of non-recognised cults would have to have recourse
to civil marriage to secure their legal status.)

Anyway, my argument would be that if Gardiner is self-ordained, then if I
were to decide to do the same for myself, it would be equally as valid -
which kind of makes the whole thing a bit of a charade, or an exercise in a
neat little bit of fantasy. Nothing wrong with that I suppose, provide it's
recognised as such. Perhaps a different term might be more appropriate (say
"qualified"?), given the associations of ordination in the Christian context
over two millennia.

You have answered my point on the question of celtic Wicca. I think,
however, that the nomenclature is a bit misleading. I mean, Celtic and
Wicca are hardly of the same period historically, but I'm not sure how it
could be "tidied up" into as succinct a term, so let it pass.

I don't think that my question on the financial aspect has really been
answered, so I reiterate, either one is fabulously wealthy to expend such
sums as indicated on setting up a spiritual group, or ........one is
fabulously wealthy. I don't see anyone taking our a bank loan, mortgaging
the cat, or whatever, for several tens of thousands of Euros to set up a
spiritual organisation. So I ask again, is it really so that such
significantly large amounts were expended? Permit me my incredulity. If I
say it seems unlikely, please put this down to my incapacity to grasp the
significance of such an open-handed gesture. I certainly wouldn't see
myself, were I wealthy enough (vain hope!), ever making such a financial
gesture.


David


with

primitive jim

In America one can get on line and join the Universal Life Church and perform a
wedding the same day.

Exactly! But if the charade holds together over years and does not violate any
laws, it becomes a new tradition with all the perks.

Geeze, Christianity was such a farce!!!!

Genuine Wicca is known in the states as British Traditional Wicca. It's core
written materials
were set down by British citizens.

pangur ban

The word "teachings" caught my eye. I have recently become interested in
studying druid/wicca teachings. I was overwhelmed by the wealth of
beliefs and books available and thought I needed a starting point and
some guidance. I have been examining online courses of study and had
chosen one in which to enroll....there is a fee to do so. Are you
implying that if I do so, I will not be receiving instruction and
direction (though as regards direction, I am a somewhat of a mule) from a
"proper" group? If so, what alternative can you suggest?

Pang - I am but an Egg.

primitive jim

Well, just as long as you arn't a mark!

:-)

david monks

SNIP

If the American system is anything


It's definite not easy!

That depends on hwether or not you accept the tenets of Christianity, the
principal one being that Jesus is God. If you do accept, then the whole
system is incredibly valid. If you don't accept it, then certainly your
comment holds good.

David

MEGA SNIP

odubhain

<snip>

The purpose of ordination is to:

1. Confer authority.
2. Initiate and install a priest into the priesthood.
3. Celebrate one's spiritual achievements.


Any power can be aqbused. Ordination is a recognition of commitment to
service rather than and endowment of power. I view it in a similar
manner to the Magical powers that are said to come along with enlightenment and imbas.


<snip>

Celtic Wicca is what people who want to be Witches and feel an
affinity for Celtic traditions are constantly inventing and reworking
daily in the united States.


This is because most Americans don't know that Wicca is not Celtic.
Wicca is usually either made-up Gardnarian practice or eclectic
NewAge/Witchcraft ala Llewellyn and others. There are some traditions
of Witchcraft that predate Wicca, Strega for instance, African
Witchcraft and Gypsy practrces (among others).


Both Ronald Hutton and Isaac Bonewits have written books in the last
few years that detail how Wicca was created by Gardiner from Hindu,
British, OTO, neo-Druid and Crowleyian works/writings (NTM the
creative efforts of Alex Sanders and Doreen Valiente). Wicca is about
60 years old in its current forms at the oldest. Being new in no way
invalidates its practices or the results that it obtains for its
followers and initiates.

Searles

thorn

<SNIP>

Doesn't that contradict "Confer authority" ?

--
Thorn
To your own self be true

primitive jim

Good post!