mark

I just read "The Bowl", an interesting story from the Corpus Hermeneticum,

""Why then, my father, did God not distribute Mind to all? He willed, my
son, to set it before souls as a prize that they might win. And where did he
set it? He filled a great bowl with it and set it down. He provided a herald
and ordered him to proclaim to the hearts of men the following message. Dip
yourself, you who can, into this bowl, you who believe that you will ascend
to him who sent the bowl down, you who know for what purpose you have come
into being. Those therefore who have understood the proclamation and dipped
themselves in Mind partook of gnosis and became perfect men, since they
received Mind. But those who ignored the proclamation, these are the
logikoi, who have not received Mind in addition (to Reason) and do not know
for what purpose they have come into being, or from what source.""

I read it on a site about Early Christian baptism
(http://www.mbconf.ca/believe/studyconf/isaak.en.html). But I do not
understand how this story fits into early Christian baptism. I mean, when we
talk about the Greek god Hermes passing on wisdom to his disciple, we are
talking mythology, right? What does that have to do with Christianity? "The
Bowl" talks about a herald with a proclamation, which suggest Jesus talking
about the Father. But, again, I do not understand how Jesus fits into
"made-up" mythology, so to speak. Can someone please explain this to me?

If I sound rude, then please know that this is not intentional, but probably
the result of my ignorance in this matter. I am just really at a loss.

Thanks for any clarification you might offer.

- Pete

penitent leper

You seem to be taking the Gnostic texts as "made-up" mythology, but
taking the Gospels as "not made-up history". Fact is, there are
mythological.mythic elements in the Gospels. The NT is hagiography,
not biography, metaphor, not history.

Early Christian baptism was already wholly mythological: a dying and
rising again with Jesus, the dying/resurrecting godman. In the NT,
Jesus' salvific work defeated the "weak, beggarly elemental Forces and
cosmic Powers": again, a wholly mythological view.

- pl -

pete

Thank you for your reply.

I do not take Gnostic texts as "made-up" mythology; rather, I consider
mytholgy itself, for lack of a better term, "made-up" theology.

The Bowl, if I understood its origin correctly, represents the Greek Calyx
Krater (mixing bowl), and dates from ca. 440 - 435 BC. Which brings about my
confusion. Because the story of "The Bowl", while it can certainly be
"super-imposed" on the mission of Jesus, clearly predates Jesus by a couple
of hundred years. So that the story of "The Bowl" could not possibly be
about Jesus.

Or am I mistaken in this? Put differently, is the assumption correct that
this story of "The Bowl" was used in early Christianity to represent Jesus
and his mission? Or is the "herald" in question Hermes himself, and not
Jesus at all?

Thanks,

- Pete

"Mark" <nospam@gobotherverisign.com> writes:


The christian baptismal rite is of course derived from the CH,
and not from Johnny Bappy, as inept scholars want to force you
to believe in.
This has already been shown by the supreme scholar Jean Magne in
"Deux mythes et deux rites a` l'origine du Christianisme".

exactly


Jesus is a made-up mythological figure,
as every decent scholar knows, especially Arthur Drews.
Inept scholars like Harnack, Crossan, and the likes, try to force
you into the idiotic belief in a historical Jesus.

Klaus Schilling

penitent leper

I getcha. I misunderstood. The specific point you're making is
beyond my competance to answer, as I have not made a study of it.
Theoretically, though, I don't see why the Bowl story could not have
been superimposed on Jesus narratives.


Depending of course, on which branch of early Christianity...some
were more amenable to Hellenistic influences, others were more Hebraic.

As I say, I don't know - perhaps Moggin or Klaus can supply some
insight...

- pl -

nuvoadam

It was a mixture of all four.


There are several era's of Hermeticism. Pre-C.E., there were Platonic
elements. Recognizing esoteric truths, the Hermetics thus had
elements which later Christianity and Gnosticism tapped into. For
instance-- Plato speaks of a second God who had impressed himself upon
the Universe in the form of a Cross. It is in the Platonic era that we
find some of the first words in the Gnostic lexicon being used--
Demiurge, Logos, Sophia, forms of the word Gnostic.

Alexandrian Hermeticism was only concerned with Jesus from his
childhood on. When Joseph and Mary fled into the desert they fled to
the Egyptian cities influenced by the Hermetics. And later, when as a
young boy Jesus was a mis-behaved little godling, Joseph again took
him to the Hermetics who told him he was a reincarnated God and then
awakened him. From that time on the Hermetics believed Jesus was the Logos.

The Corpus is not about Jesus. Many libelli were pre-existent to his
era. Others were created between the 1st and 3rd centuries. There
are even two prophecies warning of Christianity which will sweep over
the land and destroy Hermeticism-- probably directed at the
Valentinians.

Some of the later Corpus libelli were probably created at the same
time as certain Christian works. The Muratorian Fragment (around 170
or so) was complaining about several 'Shepherd' works. It was Hermas,
the brother of Pope Pius who is credited with being their author. In
the Corpus there is also a similar Shepherd elements created at the
same time. As an answer to these works one of the Peter Apocalypse's
was created to warn of the 'Shepherd of Hermas' as being an agent of
the dark side was intent on taking over the Christian Church. Hermas
is often used as another form of Hermes, and this would indicate
another Alexandrian connection.

The commonality to be found in Hermeticism, Christianity, Gnosticism
and Neoplatonism is the first ecclesiastical College in Church
history. Unfortunately for the Catholics, it was a 'Gnostic
Christianity' or 'Christian Gnosticism' being advanced. It seems that
many of the Gnostic Sects naturally gravitated towards the last
remaining men and women who had known the Apostles, and Alexandria was
a hotbed. I'll add some more details to this post shortly; sources,
links n'stuff.

To answer another question:
"The Bowl" is your mind. Is your cup empty or is it full?


If you are looking for the strongest connections of Hermeticism with
Christianity, then you are looking for the Alexandrian Hermetics who
slowly brought about a semblance of central authority to the Christian
Church which, while fracturing even as it was created, finally broke
apart after the fall of Jerusalem.

It was in Alexandria that the first Christian College was formed.
Clement was a famous teacher. He tried to form a unity within
Christianity, which at that time was almost more Gnostic than
Christian. There was no orthodoxy until around 170 AD, when the
Caesarean Bishop Theophilus called for the first democratically
canonized Bible, in response to the singular efforts put out by all
sorts of others including Marcion and, just over the hill-- Tatian.

Tatian had been a student of Justin Martyr in Rome. Justin spoke of
no Bible, Gospels or Epistles. None existed before his era! There
were only what he called the 'memoirs'-- a collection of sayings and
epistolic fragments which varied from Bishopric to Bishopric depending
on what they had on hand.

Leucius had been a former disciple of Valentinus and Marcion, and had
also learned at the feet of Theudas-- the teacher of Valentinus.
Theudas, or Theodas, had himself been a student of Paul and at his
time was one of the very last individuals still alive who had direct
recollections of Paul. It is very possible that Theudas was Thaddeus,
sometimes equated with Matthew: he who writes. In a round-about way
Matthew is equated with John-Mark: the Bishop of Alexandria for a
while. Leucius may have also been Lukanus: son or disciple of Luke.
In a letter written around the time of Polycarp's death, Marcion
called himself 'Marcianus': son of disciple of Mark.

It was this authority that Leucius tapped into to begin creating
Luke-Acts for B. Theophilus around 170 or so. Before this Leucius had
been engaged in making pseudo-Epistles to counteract the
pseudo-Epistles being created by the Marcionites. Eventually all of
these works were interpolated into the Epistolic works we have today,
leaving us with works where Paul is paradoxically made to attack
modern views of all concerned.

Justin intimated that the first real organized Christianity was
founded by the Simonians, and in his era was being expanded also by
the followers of Menander and Marcion-- all very Paulinic in their own
way. Especially when one considers that the Essene schizms felt Paul
was Simon Magus. Being opposed to them, Justin may further be
qualified as being pro-Logos and pro-Johannine. Justin's own
Christian philosophy thus had Alexandrian roots.

more details, links n'stuff to follow. patience will be rewarded.

peace

pete

It was empty; but now, due to your extensive answer, it is half-full.


Keep it coming! I enjoyed reading your expose, and eagerly look forward to
hear more. Thank you!

- Pete

nuvoadam

Thou shalt understand the difference between the ritualistic exoteric
water baptism and the spiritual esoteric baptism of light.

This is an example of an older libelli containing one of the
pre-Gnostic usages of the word Gnosis. However there is evidence that
it was redacted at least twice, once being in the era of the
Neoplatonists of the era of Clement and Ammonius Saccus.
(I mean, when we)


Thou shalt understand that Hermes is Thoth + Mercury, all of whom the
Church equates with Michael. In turn ye shall know that the Essenes
were Michael worshippers, calling him the guardian of Melchizedek-mind
(Essene: Yahad/Unity), the Word (Logos) of God, and the foe of Belial
aka Satan aka Melchiresa. Michael vs Satan! Logos vs the Great Seth!
Hermes aka THRICE GREAT vs Seth the GREAT. Thou shalt also
familiarize yourself with Christian sects believing that Jesus was
Michael (Mormons etc).

Just as the Essenes claimed that Melchizedek was entrusted to Michael
to bring down to the Earth, so too does "The Gospel of the Hebrews"
(according to Cyril), which states "When Christ wished to come upon
the earth to men, the good Father summoned a mighty power in Heaven,
which was called Michael, and entrusted Christ to the care thereof."

In the Infancy Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew we find Joseph taking his
family (note that Joseph is and old widower with several children) to
Egypt in order to flee Herod's edict. Jesus has already been born and
has miraculous powers. He can even speak, and when the desert heat
begins to become too much Jesus tells Joseph:

"'I will shorten your journey so that what you were going to travel
across in the space of thirty days, you will finish in one day.' While
was being said, behold, they began to see the mountains and cities of
Egypt. Rejoicing and exulting they came to the region of HERMOPOLIS,
and went into one of the Egyptian cities called Sotinen. Since they
knew no one in it from whom they could ask for hospitality, they went
into the temple which was called the 'Capitolium of Egypt'."
Afrodosius comes with his army to investigate when 365 idols in this
*Capitol/Temple of Egypt all fall down in the presence of the boy.
The whole city worships him and the family stays until an angel
informs them that it is safe to return to Judah.

There are more than a few spiritual connections between the Hermetics
and Christianity, the Essenes and the Gnostics. This was just one.

kater moggin

Pete <nospam@gobotherverisign.com>:


Um, Pete, you may want to know that Nuvoadam is one of the
net.kooks who sometimes set up shop here in ARG. If you're
looking for a source of amusement, fine. But if you're looking
for a source of info...

-- Moggin

to e-mail, remove the thorn

nuvoadam

...about hatred and fear, just ask Moggin. He's the resident expert
on such things.


Just do it already!

"He whose mind is unsteady, who knows not the path of Truth, whose
faith and peace are ever wavering, he shall never reach the fullness
of wisdom"
(Buddha Guatama DHM 3.38)

"..he shall never reach the fullness of wisdom"

'..he shall never reach the pleroma of gnosis'

'..he shall never reach the gnosis'

'..he shall never reach the pleroma'
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