saruviel

Hi all

Genesis 9:8-17
"And God said to Noah and to his sons with him, 'I now establish my
covenant with you and your offspring to come, and with every living
thing that is with you - birds, cattle, and every wild beast as well -
all that have come out of the ark, every living thing on earth. I
will maintain my covenant with you: never again shall all flesh be
cut off by the waters of a flood, and never agains shall there be a
flood to destroy the earth.'
God further said, 'This is the sign that I set for the covenant
between Me and you, and every living creature with you, for all ages
to come. I have set my bow int he clouds, and it shall serve as a
sign of the covenant between me and the earth. When I bring clouds
over the earth, and the bow appears in the clouds, I will remember My
covenant between me and you and every living creature among all flesh,
so that the waters shall never again become a flood to destroy all
flesh. When the bow is in the clouds, I will see it and remember the
everlasting covenant between God and all living creatures, all flesh
that is on earth. That,'God said to Noah, 'shall be the sign of the
covenant that I have established between me and all flesh that is on
earth.'

The above passage is the heart of the promises of Noah's covenant.
Noah's covenant applies to all mankind, as all mankind is descended
from Noah. It has laws and rules associated with it. Essentially,
this is YOUR true covenant with God. For more information, see the
following website:

http://www.geocities.com/torahcovenants

Kind regards

Daniel Daly
Canberra, Australia
email: saruviel@hotmail.com

yishai

Daniel Daly schrieb:


No Daniel, it's not. It's actually in Genesis 2. And it was originally
established with Adam and then extended with Noach and then reaffirmed
at Matan Torah - the giving of the Torah on Mount Sinai.

Regards,
Yishai

saruviel

Dear Yishai

The problem with your view (which is incorrect) is that Israel
attempts to gain authority over the Noahide nations of the world by
saying that the laws of Noah's covenant were ratified at Mt Sinai.
They weren't. The laws of Noah's covenant were established early on -
some from Adam's time, and some from Noah's time.

It is talmudic fantasy and propaganda which states that the covenant
of Noah was ratified at Mt Sinai. The bottom line is this - God has
given Israel NO authority over the Noahide nations of the world. This
is simply something Israel tries to attribute to itself with its
Talmudic lies.

Sensible Noahides should be able to see through the mesh of talmudic
hypocrisy and trust in the Scriptures alone.

An article examining the Talmud as a manmade do***ent can be found at
the following link.

http:http://www.geocities.com/torahcovenants/TheTalmud-AManmadeWork.htm

Thanks for your time

Kind regards

Daniel Daly
Canberra, Australia
email: valandriel@hotmail.com

yishai

Daniel Daly schrieb:


Amen to that, brother. I couldn't agree with you more. Which makes me
wonder why you keep stating this since it's patently correct.


Huh????

You said that Genesis 9:8-17 is the heart of the Noachide covenant. I
told you that it's in Genesis and it's has three stages. You agreed with
the fact that it's in Genesis 2 in your own reply to me, that it was
given in part to Adam and in part to Noach, but you become very
agressive when it comes to the third part. But the entire thing I
sourced from the Talmud itself. So why should you agree with me on
four-fifths of everything I said from the Talmud, but not the last part?

Daniel, I could have told you that the Talmud is a man-made do***ent.
It's the combined works of Rav who compiled the Mishnas into their


hung up about the fact that the Talmud is not the Five Books of Moses.

By the way, where did you learn Talmudic Aramaic from, Daniel? And did
you by any chance learn it on White Supremacist and Islamic Hate Sites?
The reason I ask is that for some reason (maybe to let the rest of the
world see what's going on), such sites use the funkiest possible
spellings for Tractates of the Talmud - and you've used exactly theirs.

What is it that's bothering you, Daniel? What is making you so angry?

Regards,
Yishai

saruviel

HI Yishai

MY RESPONSE
Genesis 2 has nothing to do with the Noahide covenant, and I did not
in fact agree with you. If you note my words you will see that I said
that it comes from the time of Adam - not from Genesis 2 in
particular. There were indeed universal laws given from the time of
Adam, including such things as sacrifices and possibly knowledge of
clean and unclean animals. My perspective would be that mankind
originally had a direct relationship with the living God in the Garden
of Eden and learned much of what he required of them then. Even after
Eden we see the LORD (probably the Angel of the LORD as his emmisarry)
speaking to Cain after he slew Abel. So early on, man had much
oppoortunity to learn about what God required of him.

And with the covenant of Noah, the rest of God's requirements on
mankind became known.

Now you said that I agreed with you and quoted the Talmud as your
defence. Everything I said above comes from SCRIPTURE - to me it is
only incidental that the Talmud agrees with that. Hopefully the
Rabbis at least got something right.

And I stand behind my opinion that the Rabbis tried to exhert
authority over Noahides with the idea that the Noahide covenant was
ratified at Mt Sinai. The Sinai Torah is a completely separate
covenant. There was not authority ratified at Mt Sinai to do with the
Noahide Covenant. You can't find that in Scripture anywere. My
covenant (ie Noah's) with God does not have authority because of a
covenant made AFTER it with Israel. It had the authority all of its
own and did not need the Mt Sinai events to confirm it. If you can
show me evidence of this in Scripture, then I'll believe it, but until
then I will simply regard it as Talmudic Fantasy.


YOU WROTE
, I could have told you that the Talmud is a man-made do***ent.

MY RESPONSE
Yes indeed the Talmud is a manmade do***ent. And it show all the
flaws and mistakes that mankind is capable of making. It is far from
divine. My point is that, because the Talmud is indeed a manmade
do***ent, we should show it no more respect than that. To call it the
Oral Law and attribute to it the same status as the Written Law (ie
going back to Moses) is a manmade tradition of the Rabbis that has
definitely had its days. Those who read the Talmud should treat it
with caution realising that it is just the opinions of men from a
particular time period in history. It is far from eternally binding
like many orthodox commentators still claim.

And I am not hung up on the fact that the Talmud is not the Five books
of Moses. I don't know were you get such an idea from frankly. YOU WROTE

I have no knowledge of Talmudic Aramaic. And yes, I also have seen
those White Supremacist and Islamic hate sites. Firstly, let me tell
you in the strongest possible terms that I abhor racism of all forms -
we are all children of Adam and Noah, and all are related to some
degree. Racism is an abhorrent evil, something to be rebuked and
challenged in every generation.

However, the Talmudic quotes on my website are quite genuine. I have
checked them against a copy of the Talmud in English (Soncino edition)
held at St Marks Anglican library here in Canberra. They all appear
correct.

So if you haven't had a look at the link, read it. It will clearly
show that many of those who spoke the words of the Talmud were racist
themselves and looked with great disdain upon gentiles. To me much of
the Talmud is absolutely ridiculous and it definitely shows its age
and the era it was written in. Sensible Jews (like many reform and
Karaite jews) openly acknowledge the problems with the Talmud and
reject it completely as a manmade do***ent with all the flaws that it
happens to contain.


Anyway, for a perspective on the Talmud by a former orthodox jew who
is now a Karaite Hakham, read the following link:

http://www.karaite-korner.org/rekhavi/my_journey.shtml

It is very illuminating and good evidence to show why the Talmud can
not be trusted.

Kind regards

Daniel Daly
Canberra, Australia
email: valandriel@hotmail.com

yishai

Daniel Daly schrieb:

Authority? What authority? The halachic implications of the Shewa
Misswoth Bne Noahh are that a Gentile has the right to live in the Land
of Isroel as a Gar Tashaw.


You're quite right. The trouble is, I never said that there was
authority ratified at Matan Torah. The Shewa Misswoth Bne Noach were
ratified at Matan Torah by being incorporated into the Torah she
bichtaw. In Genesis 2.


Your information was sourced from those same website, Daniel, wasn't it?
Some of the quotes on your site don't exist in the Talmud. Some of the
tractates don't even exist!

I have read the article. The answer to most of his "problems" is very


That explains that if what he has really written is true (come on, just
once he could mention his old Yeshivah by name), why he had so many
problems.

If he's so shocked to find that there were disputes between Tannaim,
then he's never learned why the Mishans were poskened and written down
by Rabbi Yehudah Hanassi in the first place, why Ravina and Rav Ashi
compiled the Gemorrah and why the Talmud is only a halachic work.

Regards,
Yishai

saruviel

MY RESPONSE
In the Talmudic Noahide book, 'The Path of the Righteous Gentile' it
states that a Noahide is only observant if he observes his laws
because they were ratified at Mt Sinai. To me this is quite clearly
an example of Israel trying to exhert authority over Noahide people.

Also, you have previously said to me that I was NOT a righteous
gentile because I did not observe the 7 laws of Noah from the Talmud,
but followed Scripture alone. This is an example of you, a Jew,
trying to exhert authority over me, a Noahide. What gives you the
right to judge me and my salvation with God????
YOU WROTE

MY RESPONSE
I checked the first couple of pages worth of quotes from the Talmud
located here in Canberra at St Marks Anglican Library (Soncino
edition). To satisfy you, when I can, I will take the article and
confirm the rest of the quotes and tractate names. If I can't find
them I will delete them.


On another issue entirely, please take a look at the following article

http://www.geocities.com/torahcovenants/TheStrangerAmongstYou.htm

In it I present SCRIPTURAL evidence to support the theory that
Noahides who reside in Israel should observe the fulness of Torah Law,
with the exception of observing the Passover. The basic reason that I
have come up with as to why the Scriptures teach this is that God
expects us to Honour Israel as the holy land - it is to be sanctified
by Jew and Gentile alike. I personally believe that their should be
some attempt to teach muslims who live in Israel the Torah - although
I of course acknowledge that this would be next to impossible. Still,
if they realised they had these obligations, them being religious
people, they might be interested. Personally, I would teach them
Abram's covenant (ie Noahs laws plus the rite of cir***cision) but of
course the Talmud denies them the cir***cision. What do you think
personally Yishai? Or do you only go by the Talmud for your religious
opinions?

Kind regards

Daniel Daly
Canberra, Australia
email: valandriel@hotmail.com

yishai

"Daniel Daly" <saruviel@hotmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:755bae82.0405241548.6bce1263@posting.google.c om...


Actually, Daniel, any ban Noahh who observes the Shewa Miswoth Bne Noahh
because of reasons other than the fact that they were commanded of him by
G-d, then that person is not fulfilling a Miswa, but is following their own
judgements. A person who does not eat the meat off the limb of a living
animal because he finds it abhorrant - and only because he finds it abhorant
and couldn't care less that it's one of the Shewa Miswoth Bne Noahh, is not
fulfilling the Miswa. That is clearly what the Rambam says in Hilchoth
Melahhim. It even applies to Jews when it comes to the 613 Miswoth. The
Hhafas Hhaim poskened that any person who physically goes through the
motions of a Misswa and does not have the intention to do it because it was
commanded of him by Hasham has not fufilled the Misswa and should do it
again with the proper intention.

Actually, you came on to aus.religion.judaism and asked for people to
comment on your writings. Which I did.


Noahide.

Exert authority? Your're being specious now, Daniel. I answered your


up to you, but you shouldn't be interested in what I think because,
according to you, I'm a loony Talmud-toon anyway.


Salvation with G-d??? You're sounding too much like and Xian.

And besides, strictly speaking, your having come onto the newsgroup to begin
with and asking in big, clear, typed, script what we thought of what you
wrote makes your appeals to pity right now to be very bad form.


Shame on you.


Bye.

Regards,
Yishai

xadinaomega

The above is an exmple of the stupidity of Talmudic reasoning. I
believe that God attributes righteousness to righteous behaviour. For
example, if you do not steal because you believe it is wrong, I
believe that God would credit this to you as righteous behaviour.
Likewise, if you do not blaspheme because you believe this is wrong, I
believe that God would credit this to you as righteous behavioiur. To
say, like the insane talmudic rabbis say, that you have to believe
that these laws were given by God to be righteous is just stupid.
This is nowere recorded in the Torah as being true - it is simply
ludicrous Rabbinic opinion.

Yours sincerely

Callodyn Bradlock (aka Daniel Daly)
Canberra, Australia
email: xadinaomega@hotmail.com

yishai

"Callodyn Bradlock" <xadinaomega@hotmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:c33c5677.0406180005.4365446e@posting.google.c om...

If you ever get rid of your "I", you won't write stuff like what you just


"You shall love the L-rd your G-d with all your heart, with all your soul
and with all your might...."

Moses didn't teach to us that we must love G-d half-heartedly, in ways that
suit us when it's convenient.

With ALL, Daniel. With ALL.

Anyone who performs the miswoth because they make him feel good, because
they coincide with the accepted mores of the society that that person lives
in, because with their "infinite wisdom" they have worked out that they are
a "good thing to do", because to do their opposite is repulsive to that
person, or for any reason other than the fact that G'd commanded them; that
person is not serving G-d and performing his miswoth...

They are serving themselves and gesticulating in ways that look similar to
performing the miswoth, and commensurate with their efforts to serve G-d
will be their reward.

Get over yourself Daniel, for your own sake.