alexander kalinowski

Alex:
No, I just accepted it when it came along.

: Manipulating the Scriptures to say what men want them to say will not
: profit.

Alex:
Depends on the intention.

: This is the man who is cleansed of...all...unrighteousness...

Alex:
Except for the one needing to proclaim such. The righteous walk in hidden
virtue.

: He is the man who loves God with all his heart, all his soul, and all
: his mind. Such a man is perfectly Spirited as his Father in heaven is
: perfectly Spirited.

Alex:
You are right: less than perfection will not do. And thinking one is perfect
when one isn't won't either do.

: A sinner has an advocate, a Person who has paid in full his account; surely
: the Lord is worthy.

: But...if a man does not choose to lose his life, then advocacy is of no
: avail.

: There is no darkness in Christ.

: Whoever sins is in darkness.

Alex:
Can't do anything but agree with this... :-)

: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

: My Sons are born of Me. They are My Spirit.

: In them is no darkness at all.

: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

: Only One Spirit loves...and loves indeed. : ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: "Brian Garrison" <justabranch@cox.net> wrote in message : news:Zh3Ja.71398$Pc5.98@fed1read01...
:> DO CHRISTIANS SIN?
:>
:> by
:>
:> Kyle Butt, M.A.
:>
:> A quick reading through the small epistle of 1 John reveals a number of
:> verses that seem to disagree with each other. For instance, in 1 John : 1:8,10
:> the author assures his readers that all people have sinned. In 2:1, John
:> seems to indicate that even Christians will sin and therefore need Jesus
:> Christ to be their advocate. Yet, 3:6 has John on record as saying: : "Whoever
:> abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known
:> Him." In verse 8 of chapter 3, John wrote: "He who sins is of the devil,
:> for the devil has sinned from the beginning." And verse 9 states: "Whoever
:> has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he
:> cannot sin, because he has been born of God." Steve Wells, in his work, : The
:> Skeptic's Annotated Bible, wrote concerning these verses in chapter 3:
:> "Earlier in this letter (1:8,10) John assured us that everyone sins. Yet : in
:> these verses he claims that Christians don't sin" (Wells, 2003).
:>
:> Are these verses examples of contradictions within the Bible? If they are
:> not, what do they mean? Do Christians sin, or don't they?
:>
:> The answers to these questions actually are much simpler than it may, at
:> first, appear. When we compare other translations of 3:6,8,9, we see that
:> the actual Greek wording of the verses makes a major difference in the
:> understanding of the passages. R.C.H. Lenski translated 3:6 as follows:
:> "Everyone remaining in him does not go on sinning; everyone continuing to
:> sin has not seen him, nor has he known him" (1966, pp. 457-458, emp. : added).
:> Lenski translated verse 9: "Everyone that has been born from God does not : go
:> on doing sinning because his seed remains in him; and he is not able to go
:> on sinning because he has been born of God" (p. 462, emp. added). The New
:> International Version translates 3:6: "No on who lives in him keeps on
:> sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him" : (emp.
:> added).
:>
:> Lenski explained that 1 John 3:6,9 uses a Greek construction called the
:> present durative, which should be translated "does not go on sinning" (pp.
:> 458,462). John, then, is saying no more in these verses than what Paul was
:> saying in Romans 6:1-2, when he stated: "What shall we say then? Shall we
:> continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who : died
:> to sin live any long in it?" Numerous other verses teach that Christians
:> will commit sins, even after they have been washed in the blood of Christ
:> (cf. Romans 7:14-25; Philippians 3:12-13). However, John is saying that : any
:> person who rebelliously continues to sin, making it his or her usual,
:> habitual way of life, is not following God. In 1 John 3:9, the Greek : present
:> infinitive means to habitually sin without compunction. In more practical
:> terms (to offer an example), it is one thing for a Christian to slip up : and
:> commit an act of ***ual immorality for which he or she is penitent. It is
:> altogether another thing for a person to live as a prostitute and claim to
:> be "having fellowship with the Father" (1 John 1:6).
:>
:> Therefore, it is easily shown that no discrepancies exist between the : verses
:> under discussion in 1 John. Furthermore, it is refreshing to know that : when
:> a Christian does sin, "we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ : the
:> righteous."
:>
:> REFERENCES
:>
:> Wells, Steve (2001), Skeptic's Annotated Bible [On-line], URL:
:> http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/1cor/index.html.
:>
:> Lenski, R.C.H. (1966), The Interpretation of the I and II Epistles of : Peter,
:> the Three Epistles of John, and the Epistle of Jude (Minneapolis, MN:
:> Augsburg).
:>
:>
:> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- : --
:> ----
:>
:> Copyright © 2003 Apologetics Press, Inc. All rights reserved.
:>
:> For catalog, samples, or further information, contact:
:>
:>
:> Apologetics Press
:> 230 Landmark Drive
:> Montgomery, Alabama 36117
:> U.S.A.
:> Phone (334) 272-8558
:> http://www.apologeticspress.org
:>
:>

--
Waiting for you to return.

enaud

Question. Are the sins you commit the same ones over and over, or do
you commit different sins each time? I would be willing to bet most
Christians commit the same sins over and over. Now, how is this fact
to be reconciled with the above verses? E.g., how often can I look at
****ography before God considers me to be living in rebellion? Once a
year for the rest of my life, once a month, once a week, once a day?
Committing the same sins over and over again is living in rebellion. I
don't know how else it can be explained.

Verse 8 says 'If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and
the truth is not in us.' Here's another way of looking at it. I have
sinned. That makes me a sinner. If I live the rest of my life without
sin, I have still sinned and therefore cannot claim to be without sin.
This is another way of saying what he says in verse 10, 'If we claim
we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no
place in our lives.' When viewed in this way, there is no
contradiction with other verses in I John.

I find it interesting most Christian teachers attempt to water down
these passages because the experience of most christians is continual
sin. In other words, Scripture is being intrepreted in light of
experience, rather than intrepreting our experience in light of
Scripture. Duane.

acts17-11

Dear Brian,

Great post. :-)

Love,
Ronny
---------------

Do Christians Sin?

Group: alt.christnet.christianlife Date: Sat, Jun 21, 2003, 1:33pm
(CDT-2) From: justabranch@cox.net (Brian*Garrison)
DO CHRISTIANS SIN?
by
Kyle Butt, M.A.
A quick reading through the small epistle of 1 John reveals a number of
verses that seem to disagree with each other. For instance, in 1 John
1:8,10 the author assures his readers that all people have sinned. In
2:1, John seems to indicate that even Christians will sin and therefore
need Jesus Christ to be their advocate. Yet, 3:6 has John on record as
saying: "Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither
seen Him nor known


"Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him;
and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." Steve Wells, in his
work, The Skeptic's Annotated Bible, wrote concerning these verses in
chapter 3: "Earlier in this letter (1:8,10) John assured us that
everyone sins. Yet in these verses he claims that Christians don't sin"
(Wells, 2003).
Are these verses examples of contradictions within the Bible? If they
are not, what do they mean? Do Christians sin, or don't they?
The answers to these questions actually are much simpler than it may, at
first, appear. When we compare other translations of 3:6,8,9, we see
that the actual Greek wording of the verses makes a major difference in
the understanding of the passages. R.C.H. Lenski translated 3:6 as
follows: "Everyone remaining in him does not go on sinning; everyone
continuing to sin has not seen him, nor has he known him" (1966, pp.
457-458, emp. added). Lenski translated verse 9: "Everyone that has been
born from God does not go on doing sinning because his seed remains in
him; and he is not able to go on sinning because he has been born of
God" (p. 462, emp. added). The New International Version translates 3:6:
"No on who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin
has either seen him or known him" (emp. added).
Lenski explained that 1 John 3:6,9 uses a Greek construction called the
present durative, which should be translated "does not go on sinning"
(pp. 458,462). John, then, is saying no more in these verses than what
Paul was saying in Romans 6:1-2, when he stated: "What shall we say
then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How
shall we who died to sin live any long in it?" Numerous other verses
teach that Christians will commit sins, even after they have been washed
in the blood of Christ (cf. Romans 7:14-25; Philippians 3:12-13).
However, John is saying that any person who rebelliously continues to
sin, making it his or her usual, habitual way of life, is not following
God. In 1 John 3:9, the Greek present infinitive means to habitually sin
without compunction. In more practical terms (to offer an example), it
is one thing for a Christian to slip up and commit an act of ***ual
immorality for which he or she is penitent. It is altogether another
thing for a person to live as a prostitute and claim to be "having
fellowship with the Father" (1 John 1:6).
Therefore, it is easily shown that no discrepancies exist between the
verses under discussion in 1 John. Furthermore, it is refreshing to know
that when a Christian does sin, "we have an Advocate with the Father,
Jesus Christ the righteous."
REFERENCES
Wells, Steve (2001), Skeptic's Annotated Bible [On-line], URL:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/1cor/index.html.
Lenski, R.C.H. (1966), The Interpretation of the I and II Epistles of
Peter, the Three Epistles of John, and the Epistle of Jude (Minneapolis,
MN: Augsburg).
----------------------------------------------
----
Copyright © 2003 Apologetics Press, Inc. All rights reserved.
For catalog, samples, or further information, contact:
Apologetics Press
230 Landmark Drive
Montgomery, Alabama 36117
U.S.A.
Phone (334) 272-8558
http://www.apologeticspress.org

d3xx

It is a big problem. Probably because so very few christians are
living a life anywhere near sinless. The number of christians
alive today living the kind of sinless life advocated by Michael
Christ could be counted on one hand.

So either 99% of christians today are unsaved, or something
is wrong with this doctrine. Both answers are difficult.

robert overlie

John the Apostle writing to established Christians says, " What was from the
beginning, what we have seen with our eyes, what we beheld and our hands
handled, concerning the Word of Life-- and the life was manifested, and we
have seen and bear witness and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was
with the Father and was manifested to us-- what we have seen and heard we
proclaim to you also, that you also may have fellowship with us; and indeed
our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ. And these
things we write, so that our joy may be made complete. And this is the
message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is light, and
in Him there is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with
Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but
if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship
with Him and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we
have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we
confess our sins, He is faithful and just to f****ve us our sins and to
cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we
make Him a liar and His word is not in us. My little children, I am writing
these things to you that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an
Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;" 1John 1:1-2:1

So, we have John writing to Christians about the Word of Life and about the
fellowship he has with the Father. The Father manifested this to John and
those he was writing to. That is, He revealed the Word of Life that they
now proclaim because they have seen it, handled it, watched it work. They
know it, as they know the Father. They have fellowship with the Father, and
with His Son Jesus Christ. This is the message that was heard from Him,
that God is light. Light is pure, faultless, with nothing hidden. It
reveals hidden things. So God is pure and open. Darkness is for hidden
things, and God has no need to hide because He is pure. Now, here we run
into the problem... the difference between doing dark or sinful deeds and
walking continually in darkness and sinfulness. If you read the entire
passage, I think it makes it clear that people sin. Christian people sin.
However, Christian people do not walk continually in darkness, their sin is
not constant. Remember, John is writing to Christians when he says, "If we
say we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves" in verse 8. The next verse
is well known among Christians... "If we confess our sins, He is faithful
and just to f****ve us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness".
Then right after that, he affirms again that we, Christians including
himself, sin. But we don't walk in sin, we don't live in continual sin.
And if we sin, Jesus is our advocate with the Father. So, in summary, we
Christians are to walk in the light as God does. God does it perfectly, we
do not. When or if we fall into sin, we are to confess that sin, repent,
and walk on from there in the light of God's grace and truth. Nowhere in
that passage does it assume we do not sin. In fact, it says quite the
opposite. As long as we are in this body of flesh, there will be sin. We
are commanded to not sin, to not walk in sin, and to turn from the sin that
will sometimes occur in our imperfect lives.
Other verses for consideration: Job 15:14; Proverbs 20:9; Romans 3:10-12ff;
James 3:2.

michael christ

Here is a question for you Duane...

1 John 2:
3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4He
that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the
truth is not in him.

Does a sinner keep His commandments?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

My Sons are born of Me. They are My Spirit.

In them is no darkness at all.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Only One Spirit loves...and loves indeed.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

PS It is...'If we say that we have not sinned'. That does not mean that
with God, all things are not possible to change. I sinned. I surrendered.
I was resurrected anew. Nothing of ourselves. :-).

With men, nothing changes, with God, everything changes.

PPS And something that should be a lot clearer...a sinner is sinner.

griz

Hi Jim.

The danger with many perfectionists who claim to be utterly sinless is that
they have altered both Scriptures and the definition of sin so that is
conforms to something they feel they can obtain: and in so-doing their
claim to perfection steps outside of the Gospel and becomes a false-gospel
to lead many astray.
Of course we are to be sinless! For God is sinless and we are to strive for
the perfection of the Father! Besides sharing the Gospel, that is our
mission here!

But to say like some that we are incapable of sin because Christ covers all
sin is to grant a lisence to do whatever we want without accountability and
without ever facing the deep roots in our lives that are manifesting those
sins.
To say like others that sin is only violating the Decalogue is to invite the
pridefulness and radiated scorn and condemnation of the Pharisees.
In these two examples brought to our group for our education, perfection of
some form is claimed; but only by altering the gospel of Christ to personal
liking.

To both Jim and Duane:
I believe in the Epistles of John mentioned so frequently here, John is
refuting neo-gnosticism and, as with many of the threads involving Michael
Christ and the Kupps, is leaning hard to one side of the narrow path in
order to balance out someone else who is in the ditch and preaching forth
from there something that contains God's word, but is not God's word.

Of course we are to strive to be sinless! But anyone who arrives at such a
place would be imbued with such a godly humility that they would not run
around on Usenet boasting about it, or condemning others for not being the
same!

One of the dangers of constantly engaging trolls on their own level, is that
it requires frequent balancing acts of the same kind as John engaged in.
But if we do it too often, it starts to look like we ourselves are in danger
of stepping outside the truth (on the opposite side of the path!) to those
who come along farther down the road and wonder why our messages are so
precariously balanced to the "grace" side of the equation.


To those who are struggling with repeated "subscription sins" (especially
relational, mental, or ***ual ones), a message for you:
Chances are great that there is a seed of sin planted somewhere in your
distant past. It is like a weed someone has planted in your flower garden -
probably in a dark corner that you loathe to wade into. When it first
springs up we may wonder about it's nature for a while (weed or flower), or
even overlook it altogether and allow it to go to seed. Then we spend the
next season or maybe even couple, dealing with it's offspring. In the mean
time, the cause of the offsprings remains and our time is occupied cleaning
up what we can see rather that what might remain hidden.
Many Christians eventually recognize this and seek out the "parent plant",
the "parent sin" and do all manner of things to eradicate it from poisoning
to actually laying on hands and trying to wrench it from the soil of their
heart. But there is almost always something remaining - a part of the root
hidden deep in the soil of our hearts.
In such cases, we need to ask Jesus to reveal that deep hidden root of sin
that might remain dormant for a season but always comes back again and again
until the thought might even occur that it is "just a part of us" and is
part of "the way God made you". More often than not, it is part of the way
someone or something from your early life has made you.
Until the root of the parent sin is exposed to the Light of Christ, it will
keep manifesting and Christians will turn time and time again to the lament
of Paul in Rom 7 (IIRC), and ponder greatly over the Epistles of John. The
Holy Spirit would remind us that when we said we would give ALL to follow
Jesus, we meant ALL -- and that means all past hurts and disappointments.
If you are struggling with repeating the same sins over and over, get into
the Spirit of Christ for guidance and protection and start digging to find
that hidden root.

I don't know if everyone who repeatedly manifests anger, rebellion,
selfishness, stubbornness, substance abuse, *** sins, improper thoughts,
gossip etc, etc, etc, has such a hidden root of sin in their lives -- but I
do know that a great many do. Bare your heart and your life before God -
fast and pray - until His Spirit reveals to you why you struggle so with
couple of sins, then follow the prescription He writes. It may involve
correcting past wrongs you've committed, f****ving someone who may or may no
longer be a part of your life, trusting, having more faith . . . the
treatments are as miraid as the trespasses.
But know this: that God has promised to carry on and complete the good work
that He has begun in you. The answer is not in forcing yourself back into a
slavery to laws and fulfilled covenants. The answer is always, laying your
heart open to God (including those parts you might like to keep hidden), and
putting your faith wholely in Him.

Yours in Christ,

Griz

alexander kalinowski

Alex:
No, I just accepted it when it came along.

: Manipulating the Scriptures to say what men want them to say will not
: profit.

Alex:
Depends on the intention.

: This is the man who is cleansed of...all...unrighteousness...

Alex:
Except for the one needing to proclaim such. The righteous walk in hidden
virtue.

: He is the man who loves God with all his heart, all his soul, and all
: his mind. Such a man is perfectly Spirited as his Father in heaven is
: perfectly Spirited.

Alex:
You are right: less than perfection will not do. And thinking one is perfect
when one isn't won't either do.

: A sinner has an advocate, a Person who has paid in full his account; surely
: the Lord is worthy.

: But...if a man does not choose to lose his life, then advocacy is of no
: avail.

: There is no darkness in Christ.

: Whoever sins is in darkness.

Alex:
Can't do anything but agree with this... :-)

: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

: My Sons are born of Me. They are My Spirit.

: In them is no darkness at all.

: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

: Only One Spirit loves...and loves indeed. : ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: "Brian Garrison" <justabranch@cox.net> wrote in message : news:Zh3Ja.71398$Pc5.98@fed1read01...
:> DO CHRISTIANS SIN?
:>
:> by
:>
:> Kyle Butt, M.A.
:>
:> A quick reading through the small epistle of 1 John reveals a number of
:> verses that seem to disagree with each other. For instance, in 1 John : 1:8,10
:> the author assures his readers that all people have sinned. In 2:1, John
:> seems to indicate that even Christians will sin and therefore need Jesus
:> Christ to be their advocate. Yet, 3:6 has John on record as saying: : "Whoever
:> abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known
:> Him." In verse 8 of chapter 3, John wrote: "He who sins is of the devil,
:> for the devil has sinned from the beginning." And verse 9 states: "Whoever
:> has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he
:> cannot sin, because he has been born of God." Steve Wells, in his work, : The
:> Skeptic's Annotated Bible, wrote concerning these verses in chapter 3:
:> "Earlier in this letter (1:8,10) John assured us that everyone sins. Yet : in
:> these verses he claims that Christians don't sin" (Wells, 2003).
:>
:> Are these verses examples of contradictions within the Bible? If they are
:> not, what do they mean? Do Christians sin, or don't they?
:>
:> The answers to these questions actually are much simpler than it may, at
:> first, appear. When we compare other translations of 3:6,8,9, we see that
:> the actual Greek wording of the verses makes a major difference in the
:> understanding of the passages. R.C.H. Lenski translated 3:6 as follows:
:> "Everyone remaining in him does not go on sinning; everyone continuing to
:> sin has not seen him, nor has he known him" (1966, pp. 457-458, emp. : added).
:> Lenski translated verse 9: "Everyone that has been born from God does not : go
:> on doing sinning because his seed remains in him; and he is not able to go
:> on sinning because he has been born of God" (p. 462, emp. added). The New
:> International Version translates 3:6: "No on who lives in him keeps on
:> sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him" : (emp.
:> added).
:>
:> Lenski explained that 1 John 3:6,9 uses a Greek construction called the
:> present durative, which should be translated "does not go on sinning" (pp.
:> 458,462). John, then, is saying no more in these verses than what Paul was
:> saying in Romans 6:1-2, when he stated: "What shall we say then? Shall we
:> continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who : died
:> to sin live any long in it?" Numerous other verses teach that Christians
:> will commit sins, even after they have been washed in the blood of Christ
:> (cf. Romans 7:14-25; Philippians 3:12-13). However, John is saying that : any
:> person who rebelliously continues to sin, making it his or her usual,
:> habitual way of life, is not following God. In 1 John 3:9, the Greek : present
:> infinitive means to habitually sin without compunction. In more practical
:> terms (to offer an example), it is one thing for a Christian to slip up : and
:> commit an act of ***ual immorality for which he or she is penitent. It is
:> altogether another thing for a person to live as a prostitute and claim to
:> be "having fellowship with the Father" (1 John 1:6).
:>
:> Therefore, it is easily shown that no discrepancies exist between the : verses
:> under discussion in 1 John. Furthermore, it is refreshing to know that : when
:> a Christian does sin, "we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ : the
:> righteous."
:>
:> REFERENCES
:>
:> Wells, Steve (2001), Skeptic's Annotated Bible [On-line], URL:
:> http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/1cor/index.html.
:>
:> Lenski, R.C.H. (1966), The Interpretation of the I and II Epistles of : Peter,
:> the Three Epistles of John, and the Epistle of Jude (Minneapolis, MN:
:> Augsburg).
:>
:>
:> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- : --
:> ----
:>
:> Copyright © 2003 Apologetics Press, Inc. All rights reserved.
:>
:> For catalog, samples, or further information, contact:
:>
:>
:> Apologetics Press
:> 230 Landmark Drive
:> Montgomery, Alabama 36117
:> U.S.A.
:> Phone (334) 272-8558
:> http://www.apologeticspress.org
:>
:>

--
Waiting for you to return.

cbrown7281

Yeah, and thats after the grenade went off prematurely...
Cal...

alexander kalinowski

:>Can't do anything but agree with this... :-)

: That must be disappointing Alex. :-).

Alex:
Why do you keep erring about the nature of the heart of Alex,
Michael? Alex prefers accordance over discords. But he won't
seek accordance by all means. Where it is necessary in his
mind to differ, he will.

--
Waiting for you to return.