Hi,

I was wondering why there are no crosses on Mormon churches? It seems
like there is a trumpeter on the temples.

gene fuller

Seems like, doesn't it? It is not true on all LDS Temples. But at most there
is a statue to depict an angel trumpeting the good news of the Gospel.

Not that this angel is necessarily representative of the one mentioned in
the Book of Revelation, but that revelation does speak of an Angel in Heaven
but it might represent that one. See Rev 8:13;. Rev 9:14; Rev 14, especially
verses 6-7. I imagine more of us in the Church consider that this statue
represents the angel Moroni, who appeared to Joseph Smith and provided to
him the plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated.

As for the cross, rather than asking why we do not use it in our buildings,
I rather ask, why should it be used in the buildings? Some traditions use
and empty cross, some use a cross holding the dead body of Christ. Which is
to be preferred and why? Why should either be used?

jeff shirton

The body of Christ represents the atonement on the cross.
The empty cross represents the victory in death, of resurrection.

I think *both* are to be preferred (over a non-cross gospel).


Mat 10:38 And he that taketh not his CROSS,
and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will
come after me, let him deny himself, and take up
his CROSS, and follow me.

Mar 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with
his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever
will come after me, let him deny himself, and take
up his CROSS, and follow me.

Mar 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto
him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever
thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have
treasure in heaven: and come, take up the CROSS,
and follow me.

Luk 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me,
let him deny himself, and take up his CROSS daily,
and follow me.

Luk 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his CROSS, and come
after me, cannot be my disciple.

1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel:
not with wisdom of words, lest the CROSS of Christ
should be made of none effect.
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the CROSS is to them that perish
foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of
God.

Gal 5:11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach cir***cision, why do I yet
suffer persecution? then is the offence of the CROSS ceased.

Gal 6:12 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they
constrain you to be cir***cised; only lest they should
suffer persecution for the CROSS of Christ.

Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the CROSS of our
Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me,
and I unto the world.

Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body
by the CROSS, having slain the enmity thereby:

Phi 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself,
and became obedient unto death, even the death of the CROSS.

Phi 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now
tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the
CROSS of Christ:

Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his CROSS,
by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say,
whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us,
which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way,
nailing it to his CROSS;

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who
for the joy that was set before him endured the CROSS,
despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand
of the throne of God.

Jesus, Paul, and the author of Hebrews all seemed to think that the
cross was pretty important, and the fact that LDS don't seem to,
well, more's the pity. It is said to see that the one object that is
arguably the most appropriate for Christianity, is one that is
*mocked* by LDS (how many times have I heard LDS talk about,
"if someone you loved was killed today, would you wear an
AK47/bullet/noose/electric chair around your neck?!)

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the CROSS is to them that perish
foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of
God.

Given the above, what better symbol of the gospel is there?
And given the above, what is the evaluation of the mocking LDS,
who consider it "foolishness"?

--
Jeff Shirton jshirton at cogeco dot ca
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
"[T]he gospel is not that man can become god,
but that God became a man." -- James White
Challenge me (Theophilus) for a game of chess at Chessworld.net!

The following was extracted from
http://www.crichtonmiller.com/index.htm


The Celtic cross symbol represents a prehistoric instrument that could
measure the stars, create the zodiacs and tell time within seconds long

before organised religion likened it to a crucifix.


It measured the earth in prehistory allowing sea going hunter
gatherers to cross the Atlantic long before Columbus or the Vikings.


It was a geometrical device used to design the ancient ritual
observatories of Stone Henge, Egyptian and Mayan Pyramids .


The Celtic cross reveals with its simplicity of design, ease of
function and honesty of purpose how easily we can become blinded by
dogma, social conformity and peer group pressure.

The only method of telling the time in ancient era's was to track the
position of the sun both night and day since the peoples of the world,
quite rightly saw the sun as the Father and maintainer of all life on
earth.


In absence of miniature modern electronic and mechanical clocks or
calendars, our ancestors had to rely on the only mechanical device that

they could observe and that was the motions of the sun, moon and
planets across the face of the fixed stars .


To recognise these stars, our ancestors joined the lines between groups

of them to make an imaginary (Images) and in a universally and easily
recognisable form for the use of other observers and to pass the
information down through the generations. It is not important to argue
what civilisation used what images, it is only important to understand
the principles involved.


The Sumerians, Egyptians, Chinese, Indians, Maya and the Greeks all
created their own images of these groups of stars whereas the Inca used

the spaces or shadows between the stars to make images of their zodiac
constellations. The most well known of these are the Llama, the Condor
and the Toad, however it was the Greek system that we adopted and still

use in astronomy today, it is known as a zodiac, named thus after the
word zoo for animals making the full meaning of the word zodiac as
meaning a circle of animals.


The purpose of this 360? circle is to place the sun, the moon and the
planets on the plane of the solar system known as the ecliptic so that
you can see clearly their position against the stars behind them.


The 360? circle is divided into 12 signs of the zodiac, each sign all
though not equal to exactly 30? fills the area for recognition
purposes only and allows the ancient astronomer to recognise which
segment of the circle he is observing. The degrees being observed are
subdivided into 60 minutes of arc of which the cross and plumbline are
quite capable of measuring.


By these ancient systems of measurement the hours and minutes of the
day and the weeks and months of the year can be accurately determined,
providing you have an instrument with which to measure them.


Of course, it is obvious, or it ought to be so, that you cannot measure

what constellation the the sun is in when you actually see the sun. The

result of seeing the sun is what we call daylight and in daylight, no
stars can be seen at all except during a solar eclipse.


There had to be another simple and logical method of measurement of
discovering the exact position of the sun on the ecliptic plane.


The following reasoning should lead the reader to the conclusion that
our ancient ancestors once knew that the world was round and only
deterioration and corruption of a societies knowledge would lead them
to conclude that the earth was flat . Such deterioration of knowledge
was extant in Christendom in the Dark Ages but not in the earlier
Islamic or Hellenistic eras.


It has come to the authors notice through considerable research that
there was such a logical method of determining the position of the sun
in a zodiac sign during daylight and it is obvious but is shrouded and
obscured in superstition and myth.


There is a further zodiac that is connected geometrically to the
ecliptic one and that obscure zodiac is known as the cir***polar
zodiac.


The ancients thought in wheels and there are two of these zodiac wheels

in the northern hemisphere, the ecliptic and the cir***polar.


In the same way, there are two poles, the celestial or north pole and
the ecliptic pole, it is the latter ecliptic pole which holds our
attention for the purpose of telling time.


Why? because the celestial pole star drifts through the actions of
precession at the rate of 1? every 72 years and is therefore not
reliable over time, but the ecliptic pole which is directly over the
centre of the sun is constant and varies little over hundreds of
thousands of years.


The result of the observation of the phenomenon known as precession was

that the Egyptians saw the intertwined cyclical changes of order and
chaos that we call Time as natural Gods and by determining the position

of the sun in a zodiac at the Spring equinox named the God of that
moment (Horizon) accordingly.


Hence, the God of the Age commencing with the building of the Great
Pyramid of Khufu in 2170BC and ending with the death of Jesus Christ
was AMUN or AMEN as stated at the end of the Christian Lords prayer.
Amun means Aries which was the Zodiac sign for a period of around 2160
years. Even the Pharaohs were named after the Age, the most famous
being Tutankhamen meaning Tut=Wisdom Ankh=Life Amen=Aries. The
boy Kings name was literally "The Life and Wisdom of the age of Aries
Of course, we are now at the end of the age of Pisces as can be seen
from the Fish symbols on the hats of Christian priests and on the back
of Christian cars.


But how did our ancestors measure the position of the sun against the
backdrop of the stars since the stars would be obliterated by light?


No matter what you are told by any other researcher, it was impossible
for our ancestors to determine the exact position of the sun in a
constellation by observing the stars at dawn or sunset, to suggest
otherwise is preposterous showing either a lack of actual observation
and research, or a deliberate fudge to obscure the truth.


It is for this reason that astronomers do not recognise astrologers and

see them as pseudo-scientists.


Is the reason for such disdain because most modern astrologers who
influence others fail to practise real astronomy? Are they still
working on unobserved mathematics inherited from the Greeks which are
2000 years out of date through the actions of precession?


It is the ecliptic pole that determines the position of the sun in an
ecliptic zodiac sign and this can only be determined at night by
observing the constellation Draconis with a Working Celtic cross.
(Extracted from
http://www.crichtonmiller.com/ancient_time_keeping.htm).

christian

So Jesus was a Celtic?

brian sanderson

Ooh! I know! Let's go one better and start using the Crux Gamatta (broken
cross) as an EVEN BETTER symbol of Christ's victory over death!!!

Ok, pardon my irony, I'm done...

gene fuller

Please educate me. What led to this question?

jeff s.

It was my understanding that the LDS chuch feel the cross represents
Christ's death, whereas they feel His resurrection is vastly more
important to church doctrine.

gene fuller

Some LDS members believe that way, some do not. I know of no demand that we
believe one way or other. I certainly wish that people would stop
"understanding" their own private beliefs about certain things as the
position of the Church.

Sometime when I have more time, I will look up what Joseph Smith said about
the right to hold private beliefs.

jeff s.

What I posted had nothing to do with my own private beliefs. I actually


guess I should've been more specific as to where I got my education
from. When post something or ask a sincere questions, it is because I
am only wanting to learn how other LDS members feel or think about the
subject. I am only trying to get at truths - to separate them from
innacurate or false statements made by others - to separate truths from
simply rumours and false information.