Hey kids,

I was reading how Zoroastrians believe Lucifer redeemed himself
(somehow) and is no longer at odds with the "Big Guy." As a result
Muslims accuse them of being "Satan worshippers" (yadda yadda yadda).

I was thinking about what got the nicely lit one cast out: Vanity,
pride, wanting everyone to adore him. What's a Buddhist model for the
fallen Angel of Light? If he's fallen - from grace I suppse - isn't he
just stuck like everybody with the whole samsaric lot, rebirths and all?
Maybe he's clinging to something he shouldn't? Stuck in a cycle of
attachments? Maybe one of those beautiful nephalim that God or some
other archangel sired, pursuing him/her endlessly through time, through
rebirths? A mortal love perhaps, a Persephone adored by Pluto, in myriad
reincarnated forms?

Shaky said the Devas aren't exempt, so what's a shining being to do?
Strive to attain enlightenment? Get off the old God Wheel? Hey, like
Jaweh's been pretty quiet lately, maybe he really did take the last
train to the coast, to board the boat going to the other shore. Gate,
gate, paragate, parasamgate, bodhi, svaha, en Domini! Thwump!

And then what for ol Nick? Could he strive to alleviate suffering in
others? If he defers arahantship or nibanna in order to serve as a
bodhisattwa of the damned, he can't just up & leave or quit the job can
he? There he is, the damned need succor!

It must **** working for the big guy, even as a demigod of the
underworld, much maligned and all that. Even if old Mephistopheles finds
liberation he's probably stuck with this tough job of triaging the daily
tide of misfortunate souls who've piled up lots of dead, rotten karma.
He's partly responsible for their situation, what's an freshly
enlightened shining one to do, that karma's pretty damned fresh, less
than a picokalpa old. Instead of keeping them stuck in eternal suffering
or mournful limbo, he could teach to them & ship them back for another
go, back to the front lines of co-dependent origination?

So .. should Buddhists try to promote the eventual enlightenment of
Satan? Or is that well left alone?

/leebert ("There but for the grace of God go I.")

[ . . . ]

There is no God. There is no Satan. They're immaterial.
Work out your own destiny with diligence!

Old One Eyed

--
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Satan in Christianity is the same as Mara in Buddhism, the embodiment
or symbol of temptation to evil. Consider it a quality of one's self or
soul. daveA

--
Practice pie charts, plans and schedules are good.
Practice logs, diaries and records are good.
When they fail, and they will, do another.
How else can repeated failure be a recipe for success?

The only technical exercises for all guitarists worth a lifetime
of practice: "Dynamic Guitar Technique". Nothing else is close.
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daveA David Raleigh Arnold dra..at..openguitar.com

I've always figured that "all sentient beings"
means "all sentient beings". Simplest that way. *8)

There's a nice Thich Naht Hanh talk on Mara and Buddha:
http://www.buddhistinformation.com/mara_and_the_buddha.htm
Mara and the Buddha - Embracing our Suffering

As far as fallen angels in Buddhism, well, aren't
we all? Or angels who have somehow gotten the
odd idea that we're fallen...

DC

Hi DC,

Considering that many westerners were raised on the notion of "original sin"
it is a notion that often takes some doing to un-do.

--
Best Regards,
Evelyn

(to reply personally, remove 'sox')

begone thy thong before my gong

sai hong,
in a yakskintelt
Monglia

1230 a,c,

(mongolia)

p.s. he loved horses

Or angels who have no idea how they fell into such a sorry state?

/leebert

"David Raleigh Arnold" <darnold4@cox.net> skrev i en meddelelse
newsan.2005.04.17.16.16.34.845015@cox.net...


Except that there is no soul in buddhism, and Mara is not something with a
self or ego, like the devil is.
Mara is more just a definition of "the temptation of something". But that
something is not tempting you. It's all in your mind. So you tempt yourself
with all kinds of things. "Mara" is an expression of confusion and lack of
control of your mind.
It is not only 'evil' things, but can also be to be tempted to eat too much
icecream or a spoken behavior.

--
Metta

Peter Holmgren
"May all beings be blessed with happiness..."

Mara is thinking or mentation. And yes, it is all in your mind.

At SN, IV, 202 (35, 207), SA, 1168, 312a-b, the "I am"
(asmiti) is declared to be a thought or a mentation (maññita),
and the Buddha adds: "mentating (maññamana, Skt.
manyamana) is to be bound by the Evil One (marassa
baddho), not mentating (amaññamana, Skt. amanyamana) is
to be released from the Evil One (mutto papimato)." This
sentence is repeated at SA, 21, 4c, SN, III, 74-75 (22, 64),
where it is expanded on as: "Mentating form (rupam
maññamano) [and the other aggregates] is to be bound by
the Evil One, not mentating (amaññamana, here not
mentating is absolute as the aggregates are not mentioned) is
to be released from the Evil One." Later the Scripture on the
Meeting of Father and Son (Pita-putra-samagama-sutra)
from the Siksa-samuccaya, 251 clones the Buddha's words:
"Great king, thinking is the name of the domain of the Evil
One, non-thinking the Buddha's (manyana ca nama maharaja
mara-gocarah, a-manyana buddha-gocarah)"; so does the
Descent into Ceylon (Lankavatara-sutra, ed. Vaidya, 72):
"As far as the effervescence of mind extends, so far extends
the domain of the world (yavad ... mano-vispanditam ... taval
lokayatam)."

Tang Huyen

If Satan is a sentient being, then his/her liberation should also be
sought.

But then I've always been a bit confused about the Christian
view... would not Satan also be f****ven if he sought f****veness?

(I also hold with the view that Satan/Mara is the Adversary or Temptation
self-existing of our own perception, and not a physical entity outside the
field of what one would perceive as a self)

--
Karma Tshering