pro-humanist freelover

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http://www.ghg.net/phf/philosophy_freelover/we_are_all_one.htm
---

.... We flow through life with the illusion of control, but with
very little we are actually in control of, an inevitable event/
being in a vast cosmos of time and space, inextricably
linked to one another and to our surroundings in which we
find ourselves.

Free will or absolute destiny?

Tricky, the difference between the illusion of free will and
free will as an absolute. If you think of the now as an event
equivalent to a snapshot of a wave, with humans being surfers
on the wave, perhaps you can begin to consider the flow of
events in a different way.

At any point, there are a finite number of options for any
surfer on the wave, based on physical law. I "choose" based
on all events prior to the now point in the wave. I can no more
divorce myself from the prior points in the wave than I can
"choose" an option outside the finite number of options
existing in this now.

In other words, my illusion of "free choice" is a result of all
the previous events in the "eternal" wave (eternal in theory,
known in theory at least back to a point close to the big bang)
and the finite number of options presented at any now point
in the wave.

Put another way, given all the points in the wave leading up
to any now, that now can be no different than it is because
it is a result, not a choice independent of the wave. It "feels"
free because of our (humans') limited processing power.

We cannot possibly begin to fathom the practically infinite
points in the "eternal" wave which led to our experiential
now, so we treat life with the illusion of free will when we
are really surfers on the "eternal" wave, hanging ten, doing
it over and over again in an endless wave (endless in the
metaphorical sense as to a never-ending natural cosmos
[yet to be proven]).

Of course, we may not be around (upon death) to observe
the wave but the wave goes on (and on and on ...) with or
without us.

The neat way to look at this is that we can "create" stimuli
which impacts others in positive and constructive ways and
the fact that any stimuli we "create" is understandable based
on a point in a wave does not alter the fact that we can make
a difference in the future of those surfers riding the "eternal"
wave. Humbling that our "choice" to make a difference is,
in absolute terms, a result and not a creation independent
of the wave.

Paradoxical, the ability to impact the future of surfers on the
wave, the illusion of free will, and the knowledge that any
stimuli we "create" is in absolute terms a result of a natural
destiny.

The above statements - all the result of my natural destiny
(and any actions you take in response to this post are actions
that are part of your natural destiny which now includes the
reading of this post - heavy, that, the knowledge that we
impact others in a real and substantive way).

Travel back in time (right before you read this post). Reflect
on the events up to this point in reading this post. Extend
your right arm and slowly move your right hand until you
touch the tip of your nose.

Now, ponder the actions and thoughts you've just experienced.
In an alternate universe or in a replay of all events in this
universe up to the end of the previous paragraph, how could
your action have been any different without some external
change in stimuli. In other words, given the same exact stimuli,
the same exact eternal wave, if you will, your illusion of your
"choice" would have been exactly the same, a result of all the
events prior to that (past) now.

You can reflect and think you could have chosen differently,
but you cannot explain the mechanism for choosing differently
without eliminating natural law and reaction to stimuli. You
cannot change the stimuli (that part of the wave has passed)
and you cannot, therefore, travel backwards on the wave and
make a different "free choice" - the choice you made is final
and irreversible, a finite point in an eternal wave which could
have not been different without an ability to supernaturally
travel backwards on the wave of time and space.

As for the future, yes, we can use this now in the wave to
impact the future in a positive or negative way, but we cannot
divorce ourselves from the knowledge that whatever "choices"
we make, they're the result of stimuli (all actions prior to this
point in the wave), not a creation of something outside the
wave.

The only random possible (that I'm familiar with) is the random
nature of the very very very very very very very very tiny world
of quantum physics. However, whatever of import is going on
in that random world, that adds nothing to the equation of free
choice, it simply adds another factor (like all previous points in
the wave) outside our control.

To "freely choose" differently, some action taken in the past,
time travel is required. That part of the wave has passed and
cannot be changed - I submit that that part of the wave is an
inevitable result of natural destiny and could not logically be
any different in any alternate experience (unless the quantum
factor mentioned above will lead to some random variation,
in which case the choice made would only have been different
based on a random factor in that alternate experience being
different, not by sheer force of will reaching outside the wave).

Let's ride that wave like there's no tomorrow and use our now
for the betterment of humankind. My illusion of free will leads
me to think I can make a difference - fitting in with the wave
theory, of course, is the knowledge that stimuli impacts the
surfers and if our genes and memes have led us to a result of
stimuli positively impacting we surfers, far out, cool beans,
let's do it! What will be, will be, and we'll see if choices "free"
fill humankind with glee (feels "free" anyway :-) ...

- - -

~~~
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
http://www.ghg.net/phf
(Freethinking Realist Exploring
Expressive Liberty, Openness,
Verity, Enlightenment, & Rationality)
~~~

david

Then we need to get rid of prisons since the people we
send here had no choice but to do what they did.

--
David V.
Yosemite Llama Ranch
dave@TheLlamaRanch.com
http://www.TheLlamaRanch.com

UDP for WebTV

max1974isome

That's because you see imprisonment as a form of revenge, not as a deterrent. -Max

neil coward

This pro humanist guy just fires out answers, he doesn't stick around to
defend his views.
but if I understand what he is saying then yes, these prisoners were
destined to commit their crimes, but we were also destined to build prisons
and shove them in.

We could then demolish all the prisons and let the murders out, then anarchy
would reign but then again we would be 'destined' to do that.


gtHE S

david

He doesn't top post does he? That makes it real hard to
follow the thread and in many newsgroups it is considered bad netiquette.


A fine example of circular logic.
--
David V.
Yosemite Llama Ranch
dave@TheLlamaRanch.com
http://www.TheLlamaRanch.com

UDP for WebTV

david

That might have something do with the fact that
imprisonment does not work as a deterrent and that in
this SOCIETY imprisonment is seen as punishment and
justice is revenge.

Also, to stay on the topic of predestination, how would
prisons act as a deterrent when the person had no
choice but to commit the crimes they were predestined
to do? How could you punish someone for doing something
that was not their own choice?

One last thing; your assumption that I see prison as a
form of revenge is wrong. That usually happens when you
make such bold statements without knowing what you're
talking about.

--
David V.
Yosemite Llama Ranch
dave@TheLlamaRanch.com
http://www.TheLlamaRanch.com

UDP for WebTV

neil coward

sorry I don't understand
what is the circular logic?

humanist

I don't disagree with the message you're conveying. But I it seems to me that
the last statement in the paragraph is problematic. I Think it merges two
concepts -> severity of punishment and infringement on freedoms, which should
probably be kept distinct.

"The more oppressive the laws the higher the crime rate"...

f severity of punishment is what is meant by oppression, I would see it as a
process going the other way around (higher crime rate producing harsher
punishment)

if limit to freedom is what is meant, the this would be expected since a larger
percentage of behavior would fall into the "criminal" category.

david

I know, it's a nice, neat, circular package. There's no
way out of the circle. I guess we were predestined to
think that way......

--
David V.
Yosemite Llama Ranch
dave@TheLlamaRanch.com
http://www.TheLlamaRanch.com

UDP for WebTV

david

Back when they hung pick pockets, the most common place
to get your pocket picked was at the hanging of a pick
pocket.

--
David V.
Yosemite Llama Ranch
dave@TheLlamaRanch.com
http://www.TheLlamaRanch.com

UDP for WebTV