glazik t.

(Incidentally, I'm just back from the beach with my family, where we had our
first bath - the water was quite fine for the time of the year, around 14
°C, that was a good time).


Well, it is... even though I lack time. I recently decided to go back to it
when a friend of mine said she was interested, and I could not give her
anything "finished". And here I'm again :-)

Well, I haven't reached that stage yet - but I was glad to see that I had
not lost the bits I learned, years ago.


Yes, I also find it a great tool, worth it's price.


Hey, that's a nice tool. For now, I manage to get all right because there
are now lots of stuff over the Internet.

During all these years, I had planned to spend weeks scanning characters in
the Philastre, and suddenly I found the Yi Jing's text online at:
http://www.chinapage.com/classic/iching/iching.html.

Wow, that was great. I spent a memorable evening copying and pasting text,
line by line, into tables. This is because I want to display the text
vertically, as they did then - you see so much more in it that way. I
twisted my PC (under Windows 2000), found and added the IME (I'm not really
proficient with it, but never mind) and a few nice, free fonts, et voilà.

I went a bit lost in the Wings because I wanted to go too fast, but here I
am now, I've got the Chinese text of all Wings I intend to translate or have
"draft"-translated (3 & 4, 5 & 6, 8, 9, 10).
I presently use MingLiU font, as I had planned to use PMingLiU with
half-width characters in order to make the missing characters.
This is because I started from an older online version, made at the time
when a few dozen archaic characters were missing in the Unicode character
set, now I've been told that all are there but one.


Too bad - I bookmarked it, I hope it comes back soon.

Good. I'll sure do that.


Well, you are tempting me :-)

Yes; in fact, it's the only one I've got now. The one I've got is
"Dictionnaire français de la langue chinoise", a one-volume book from 1986,
around 1200 pages; may be they made a bigger one?

I also thought about Sébastien Lecouvreur's one, now that I can work on
line, I may delay it, or switch to the HYDZD.

Interesting. I consider it as the "major stakeholder" in a situation, a
person who is empowered.

I have spent quite some time seeing how to improve the traditional
definitions of roles such as "noble man", etc., and I may end up keeping at
least some of the traditional translations, and also adding divination-related definitions.

I'm not sure I can express it in much more detail, but Cyrille told us this
comes from the meaning of the characters and seemed to consider this as a
rather established fact. For example, one can see that yin and yang (in the
meaning brought up by the taoist philosophers of 6th / 5th centuries BC and
after) can't be found in the text (strictly speaking, that is, the figure's
judgment and the lines' text) with this meaning.
You don't find yang, and you only find (figure 61) the older meaning of yin,
a valley's south side (in the shade).

I have never found this idea contradicted, but hey, I'm not an expert on Chinese culture.


Yes, this is one part of the work, and I have not been able to do this
enough at all.

For me, the other part is, using the relationships between hexagrams and
lines in order to find correspondances; you sort of "know when you found it".

Could you please insert chinese characters here?
I'm not sure I have the "right" Ricci here...


I thought over it while on the beach. You definitely are right concerning
figure 3's name:
- The bandits and brigands ? ? (in 2nd line and after) are people who, more
accurately, are not submitted to the Emperor's rule.
- The ? ("helpers" in Wilhelm/Baynes) that I (for now) translated as
"princes feudataires", I see them as either local tribe leaders (lords) who
become associated (as described in the judgment) with the Empire.
- Two other figures with a "military" background are figures 7 (obvious) and
45 (the character means "soldiers numerous as grass"), and both are
graphically not very distant from figure 3.


Well... in some way. As I see things, everything "under the sun" can be
found in the Yi Jing. But it did not evolve into a full-fledged theory. I
would have to look at it again and possibly sum it up.

I see. I have also begun to exchange a few e-mails with him.

I was very happy to see the Ma Wang Dui texts online on his site...


Henri

harmen mesker

our

Sounds good! Here the weather was fine too. But we did nothing special. Just
getting the usual groceries.


in

If I am correct this version is found on a lot of places on internet, and I
am told (can't remember by who) it contains quite some errors. I hope you
have some other versions too; if not, I can send you some. Steve Marshall
has the Harvard-Yenching version online:
http://www.biroco.com/yijing/zy1to10.htm. But without the commentaries.

really


Sounds good! I have a nice 'Lise'' (Han dynasty) style of font, and Kaishu
(regular script) font for you, if you want.

have


Impressive. I don't concern myself with the Ten Wings, I find these texts
too 'young' to help me find any original meaning of the Yi. You have a load
of work ahead of you!

Yes, the latest Unicode version contains a lot more characters. The latest
version of Wenlin is up to date with that.

1986,


Yes; there are two versions, I'll give you the links to it at Amazon.fr:

http://www.amazon.fr/exec/obidos/ASI...969169-2053750
This is the one I had, with 'just' single characters, no 'words'.

http://www.amazon.fr/exec/obidos/ASI...969169-2053750
This one also has 'words'.


Yes, although Ricci would serve you best, I think. Nevertheless the HYDZD is
always a good companion.


Ah, but that is interpretation, not translation?

at

Sounds good. There is nothing wrong with many traditional translations, but
often they are also interpretations. Ah well, translating is also
interpreting.

this

Hmmm, I find that hard to believe. You say, "Like military strategy or
whatever - it seems that all that Chinese minds produced during so many
centuries has it's origin in the Yi". But if these texts really originated
from the Yi, I would at least expect a lot of quotations from it in these
books. But as far as I know they, like the Sunzi, don't refer to the Yi. I
am quite rigid in this - if it doesn't mention the Yi, then it doesn't
originate from it.

Many texts are I-Chingistic, though. Just as Tai Chi is I-Chingistic. But it
doesn't originate from it.

By now I am sure you don't. Unfortunately Outlook Express messes up the
Chinese characters, turning them into questio marks - can't understand why,
it can handle Unicode well....

more

who


and

If you look at the early forms there is quite some difference between 3 &
45. Nevertheless I think that 45 as an ordely formed army fits the texts
where the character occurs. At least it signifies more then just
'gathering'.

Yes, although I don't value the MWD text very highly. To me it seems to
contain too much loan words. I think it stands further from an original Yi
text than the version we have today.

Best wishes,

Harmen.

nick argall

Woohoo! An opportunity to reference medicine! *ahem*

So, we're all agreeing that 3 has an 'emerging growth' theme to it, and a
relationship to a season of spring - perhaps even early spring. Now, if you
reference that to the 'five phases' theory (300 AD or thereabouts), you can
talk about meanings that tie into the 'wood' phase, which is spring. (The
element for the 'wood' phase is Liver, which is my favorite organ to talk
about, and it might be wisest to leave it at that for now.)

So, the 'wood' phase has a number of characteristics associated with it:
- difficulty
- stopping and starting
- anger and frustration
- the military (the Hun (wood phase soul) is 'like a general')
- new life
- danger
- pain

So, it's possible that the political influence of the Five Phases school or
their predecessors might have had something to do with naming 3 "initial
difficulties". It would be good to check the rest of the 64 for five phases
correspondances, but I don't know them well enough. Meh - 1 does resemble
"Fire" and 2 does resemble "Water".

Nick

nick argall

I'm aware that people claim there's a difference between these things. But
unless the rewriting into another language is done by the original author,
what can it possibly be but interpretation?

A translator may make an honest effort not to impose their own views on that
which is translated, but is it genuinely possible to succeed at such an
effort?

Nick

brett

On Sun, 16 May 2004 10:09:12 +1000, "Nick Argall"
<nick.argall@aplaceof.removedotcom.info.com> muttered intensely:


Interesting. Can you tell me about the other four phases and their
characteristics?

****
Brett (He's just some guy, you know?)

"Fair" is a Human Ideological Concept.

nick argall

Oh Brett, you are a dream come true!

So, we start with Water, which connects to
- still
- not-solid
- receptive
- nourishing
- wet (had to say it)
- cold
- winter
- silent
- fear
- motherhood and femininity
- blue (the colour)
- kidney and bladder organs
- imperial treasurer (maybe, not sure on this one)

So, water is the 'unborn' phase of life

Then we have wood (green), because seeds sprout after you water them. Wood
is the 'child/adolescent' phase.

Then we have fire (wood that has been set alight), which (besides the
obvious 'hot' and 'burning' attributes) connects to
- happy
- sustained effort
- the emperor
- red
- acheivement
- the pinnacle
- awareness of time
- ability to speak clearly and appropriately
- heart, pericardium, san jiao and small intestine organs. (What's the San
Jiao? The subject of debate *grin* it's a sort of 'virtual organ'.)

As the fire starts to burn out, it produces an earthy substance, ash. Earth
is the 'aging' phase. Earth connects to:
- worrying
- yellow
- intellectual thought
- physical manifestation
- muscle
- repeating the same action
- warmth
- decline
- minister for argriculture?
- spleen and stomach organs
- the end of a season, particularly late summer

From Earth, we can refine Metal. Metal is the 'death' phase, and it
connects to:
- sadness
- black
- drying out
- awareness of space
- transformation
- autumn
- lung and large intestine organs

That's all I can think of for the moment.

(Metal, when laid in a moist environment to cool, will attract the Water
that condenses on it.)

This model is used in a variety of ways. One way is to say that each of
these five elements should be in balance within a person. Another is to say
that these are the stages of life, and they must all be experienced. Just
as we do not blame the winter for being cold, we do not blame children for
being noisy (*ahem* - couldn't resist, Joe.)


Nick

joseph bearwalker wilson

I don't blame 'em. Just don't like 'em. <grump>


-
Live in harmony,

Joseph Bearwalker Wilson
http://www.toteg.com
'Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought.'
Matsuo Basho (1644-1694)

brett

On 15 May 2004 23:38:12 -0500, Joseph Bearwalker Wilson
<blackholeforspam@shamanist.us> muttered intensely:


On Wednesday, I hiked up Harney Peak (SD) for the second time. It was
about 34 degrees and overcast. Started to snow about 1/2 mile from
the peak. Cold, dark, silent.

Then I hear these noisy kids (a field trip from an Indian school)
coming down from the peak. Had to laugh at their seemingly boundless
energy. There I was, soaking wet with sweat, just about all done in,
serously wondering if I was going to make it to the top; and here come
these kids, laughing and running, having a good time.

Somehow it picked me right up.

****
Brett (He's just some guy, you know?)

"Fair" is a Human Ideological Concept.

glazik t.

Great, thanks.

I can't afford to proof-read every single version I find over the Internet
:-)

Somebody posted an allusion in Chinapage's forums (very helpful,
knowledgeable and kind people up there, really) about this new version not
being proof-read.

So yes, I think the best would be for me to start over again from the
Harvard-Yenching version. I had noticed various minor issues with
Chinapage's first (older) version:
- missing characters (due to Unicode's first version)
- a few possible errors (but I could only compare with (a) Philastre's book,
not fully error-prone (even though I had noted a few one according to my
own, not fully reliable checks), or (b), Cyrille's text - but I didn't very
much like the (small) font he used in his book).

Nice. Did you get my personal e-mail?
If yes, please just reply in order to confirm it - I used the one from one
of your former posts, it "looked" genuine.
I'll then send you the coordinates of my private FTP, so that you can upload
these.

I still have to translate the Da Zhuan and half of the Shuo Gua Zhuan.
The 10th Wing is quite interesting, I believe it looks like a
"non-canonical", divination-oriented commentary (doesn't follow the
traditional figures sequence) that could have been kept because scholars
could not help finding it worthwile.
A contrario, I see the 9th Wing as a good example of some of the distorsions
what Confucean commentaries try to make out of it (an "ideological"
[stemming from the "Yi"] justification in their attempts to make an
over-hierarchized, patriarcal society, so to say). I guess S. Y. Ho does not
share such POWs, though.
I consider the Shuo Gua Zhuan as worth because:
- I find it has some relevance in divination
- getting accustomed to it's contents MIGHT help (later on) better know how
to dismantle the "trigrams older than hexagrams" theory, which might well be
a fake.
(More on this later, it involves figure name changes, as demonstrated by the
Ma Wang Dui...)


Thanks for the update.

This may be the newer version of the one I've got.

And yes, this is the "big one".


Well, I had mainly thought about getting Lecouveur's one because it contains
the 30 characters or so that were missing in the one-volume Ricci of 1986.


Consider it as a "soothsayer's cookbook excerpt".

Exactly.
Providing I can achieve the quality I aim, I know I'll end up with some
portions of a translation that DO need explanations in a more modern
language, contrarily to lots of situations where, for me, any "sound mind"
(inspired) has everything he/she needs.

At first, I thought somebody (not necessarily me) would need to produce a
"re-interpretation" in modern language of the whole book, in order to make
it readable by many "modern" minds. Thinking about it again, I don't need it
would be needed except in some passages. So I may end up deciding where such
explanations are needed, and add them as notes, with two options:
(1) adding a short note with only the meaning conveyed in more modern
language
(2) explaining everything in detail, with lengthy stuff about each character
etc.

I THINK I'll choose option (1), and possibly forget about (2) - Cyrille
Javary does it quite well in some instances, or I could add my "grain of
salt" to a collective work that can come later and should be done with the
help of top-level sinologists, which I'm not.

I went too fast. I meant (according to this opinion), the way the Yi
structured minds China sort of reflects itself "naturally" in most later
works.

Well... not necessarily. I reckon we have a potential problem in what you
mention, so let's say this is a working hypothesis, no more.
But there is another issue with Chinese works, the way every author seems to
feel a need for having a tradition endorse the novelty he would bring. I
hope I'm clear here.

Well, I'll reformulate the hypothesis above (it all comes from a remark by
Cyrille) with the "I-Chingistic" term, so you'll like it more ;-)

Yeah, I noticed - too bad. Private e-mail may be more suitable anyway,
unless you have reliable info about OE setup (I use OE V6).


Maybe we could agree on saying that, similarly, there is more in figure 3
than simple "Difficulty at the beginning".


Interesting. As I have yet to dwelve in it (which would require lots of
efforts), I can't say more.
Except this other remark from Cyrille, about how it MIGHT contain some
"truer" figure names. Like 30, "bird catcher's net".


Henri

glazik t.

Nick,

Your other post did not make it yet to my news server.

I just wanted to ask if you knew about (and could post) here something about
this 5 elements cycles. I think I once heard about it...

One goes in the "growth" way, the other one in the "destruction" way.
Like: fire destroys wood, water destroys fire, etc.

Just a thought...


Henri