Gomer_lightyea 2009-06-29 20:31:11
Where on Earth does this bizarre historical narrative come from? What
evidence is there that Norsemen robbed an isolated monkery, killing the weak
residents, to revenge Saxons killed by Charlemagne? And “noble resistance of
the alien invasion of the Northlands”? Folks like Charlemagne and Olaf, etc.
weren’t alien invaders. In fact, even the Christianity that they promoted was
an extreme European alteration of the original, as Russell has demonstrated.
I won’t be celebrating Lindisfarne, which was more the equivalent of a
botched 7-11 robbery than heroism.
Doug freyburge 2009-06-29 20:31:14
Use of runic era makes it sound rather like AFA material.
The style is similar to other AFA date announcements.
Since I didn’t recognize it from prior AFA announcements
this one in immitation of the AFA style?
I thought Karl’s slaughter of the Saxons was a couple of years
in the future at that point. He got crowned Holy Roman
Emperor fir that slaughter and the crowning happened in 800CE,
so I thought the slaughter was in the late 790s.
It’s a sound bite that rolls off the tongue. But in
Michael’s own paranoid style. Hey, at least he kept it
on-topic rather than bashing. Quite artful for him. If
you wrote this Michael, keep it up. You’re learning.
I’m not sure how native to the boundary north of the
conversion progress Karl was.
I don’t get the romance of the viking raids within northern
Europe and I do have a “Viking World Tour” teeshirt, so I
treat it as a bit of sick humor I guess.
Scottarrrlowth 2009-06-29 20:31:24
He returned in 782 to Saxony and instituted a code of law and appointed
counts, both Saxon and Frank. The laws were draconian on religious issues, and
the native traditional religion was gravely threatened. This stirred a renewal
of the old conflict. That year, in autumn, Widukind returned and led a new
revolt, which resulted in several assaults on the church. In response, at
Verden in Lower Saxony, Charlemagne allegedly ordered the beheading of 4,500
Saxons who had been caught practising paganism after converting to
Christianity, known as the B***** Verdict of Verden or Massacre of Verden. The
massacre, which modern research has not been able to confirm, triggered two
years of renewed b***** warfare (783-785). During this war the Frisians were
also finally subdued and a large part of their fleet was burned. The war ended
with Widukind accepting baptism.
If the Massacre of Verden was well known, it could well have been a catalyst.
Whether it happened or not. Kinda like Haditha.
If your neighbor converts to a foreign/alien religion or political system and
then starts to attack you to force you to convert as well, the difference
between your neigher and an actual foreigner/alien invader seems pretty
minimal. As has often been pointed out, dead is dead.
My big problem with this Lindisfarne Day thread isn’t the conversion of a
smash-and-grab into a holiday, it’s that whacko “Runic Era” dating system.
Personally, stealing gold and bling from a religious order – any religious
order – ranks pretty damend low on my list of things to get upset about. If
God needs gold, he can make it his damned self.
Doug freyburge 2009-06-29 20:31:45
Runic Era is Common era with 250 added to it. Easy to do
the arithmatic, but near as I can tell the justification
is pretty whacko.
I get the point that folks know that CE used to be AD
Anno Domini and it’s a Christian calendar. Lots of
heathens go through an anti-Christian phase so wanting to
ditch the CE counting makes sense for a while. Thing is
most heathens growp up and grow out of their
anti-Christian phase. We’ve got our own religion going
here, folks, no need to focus on the one the next door
neighbors have. So I figure putting dates in RE format
is a stunt aimed at the newbies.
But what’s the justification for Runic Era counting?
A suggestion that Odin jumped off the World Tree,
gathered the runes to himself, and then gave them to
humanity in the year 250 BCE. Seems to me like the
term whacko is complementary for such a story. Note
that the runes were given to humanity by *Rig* in the
Rigsthula and the events of that tale happened so far
back in prehistory that every human on the planet is
now descended from the 3 sons of Rig. The Volspa tells
of Odin, Vili and Ve (another version gives a different
list) crafting human ancestors from preexisting material.
Call it magic, call it genetic engineering, call it
myth. But the result was still a family of animals that
lived in huts. Comes Rig to add a genetic (or cultural)
booster shot and viola we have what boils down to a new
breed of humans heading for civilization. As in Cro
Magnon moving through the rest of the Neanderthal humans
wiping them out or out competing or whatever. That’s
so much farther back than 250 BCE it isn’t funny.
So how about evidence that the Elder Futhark of the 24
staves was developed by one single genius in 250 BCE?
Quite a leap of faith. Look through older archeological
digs and you’ll see writings that look rather rune-like
in Etruscan sites and also in sites in what is now Turkey.
They are a lot older than 250 BCE but they also aren’t
actually Elder Futhark.
Ah well, Runic Era is a fun diversion.
Dirk bruere at 2009-06-29 20:31:48
I read somewhere that it is possible that the Runic script was
introduced by a single individual.
Gomer_lightyea 2009-06-29 20:31:54
Maybe even old AFA, back before Free was abandoned for Folk. The address he
gave is one owned by Ken K of the AA, but it’s older material.
Always good to remember that Asatru got its re-start in the US via the Viking
Brotherhood, which glorified- contra the Sagas, mostly- vikingr.
Reminds me of some of the comic celebration of Tokugawa era abuses, which
made me wonder if the day will come when re-enacters of the Berlin Wall will
be available for tourist entertainment.
Dirk bruere at 2009-06-29 20:32:01
Scottarrr.lowt 2009-06-29 20:32:08
(Much goodness snipped)
Dating systems are arbitrary, just as the “first day of the year” is
arbitrary. We’ve been working with the currently accepted BC/AD system for,
what, somewhere around 1600 years or so. If someone wants to propose an
alternate system, it’d damend well better ahve a good groudnign and a good
reason. Teh Christian system is based on the Son of God showing up and
sayign “Howdy” and effectively completely re-orderign the world. The Muslims
base theirs on Muhammad showing up and completely re-ordering the world. The
Hebrew version dates, IIRC, from the putative beginning of the world. These
are bigger deals than a set of runes being introduced.
Now, if Global Thermonuclear War, or The Next Super Plague or an asteroid
impact manages to wipe out the bulk of humanity… that’d be a good point to
re-zero the dating system. But retroactive “Runic Era” nonsense is just…
El_barbaro_del 2009-06-29 20:32:11
I’m just wondering why, if they’re going to celebrate such things, they have
to go so far back. How about St. Dominic’s Roman Catholic Church Day? Or, if
not that, why not at least update the holiday music with a bit of 50 Cent?
My idea of Asatru isn’t mead-drunk guys in tunics and gleaming battle helms
rolling in their pimped ride toward a the Anglicans with gangsta intentions.
Come off, now watch your chain
Fo’ I blow out your brains
O-din drive me in-sane
When people read the Lindisfarne Day malarky posted here, no wonder they have
a hard time taking Asatru seriously as a religion (even aside from the fact
that as bad history goes, only Christian Identity has it whupped).
El_barbaro_del 2009-06-29 20:32:15
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
Guess I shouldn’t complain. I used to (almost 30 years ago) run around the
Virginia and Maryland Civil War battlefields, marched at Gettysburg (evading
the cavalry droppings), etc. toting an old rifle in the uniform of the Old
Doug freyburge 2009-06-29 20:32:29
The day the control message was issued to create soc.religion.asatru
of course! Says a highly biased moderator …
There never is enough mead to go around. Huh, except in
actual practice at my place, sigh. I have a third of a
bottle of mead just sitting around waiting for me to have
the rest. That never seems to happen when two or more
heathens get together.
Doug freyburge 2009-06-29 20:32:35
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
The Cherokee alphabet was designed by a single genius.
He watched Europeans reading and asked what they were
doing. He got a quick explanation that each shape mapped
to one sound and the sounds went together to build words.
He memorized some of the shapes. Then he went home,
developed an alphabet, mapped the sounds of the Cherokee
language to the shapes, and started teaching reading and
writing. The alphabet is still in use. Back when I
worked at Xerox it was one of the contour fonts available
for the printers.
So yes, I do think that the Elder Futhark could have been
introduced by one person. It would have been based on
previous writing systems like the Etruscan one and would
have had overlap. There is about the amount of overlap
that would be expected.
If so then the tale that it was Odin who did so is as
funny as the English royal family tracing their lineage
to Woden and the Swedish royal family to Ing/Freyr. And
the idea that it happened in 250 BCE is not supported by
any known surviving carved runes.
Writing systems can and do evolve. Writing systems can
be and are invented based on the idea. Which it was in
the case of the Elder Futhark isn’t known, but it appears
to be far more an evolution from the Etruscan than the
Cherokee was from the Roman. On the other hand a glance
at the Cyrillic says that St Cyril knew the Greek alphabet
and drew partially from it. That’s about the level of
apparent overlap between the Elder Futhark and the
Etruscan system. Since Cyrillic alphabet was introduced
by one person it makes sense that the Elder Futhark was
The overlap between the Elder Futhark and the Younger
Futhark is similar in scale. It looks to me like the
Younger Futhark was also developed by one person.
Doug freyburge 2009-06-29 20:33:01
What, no Berlin Wall reentacters yet? Bummer. Must skip
Berlin next trip to Europe. I will make the supreme
sacrafice and tour the breweries of Belgium instead. And
visit www.freyburger.com and sip some wine and brandy.