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1 24th June 18:18
wilkins
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Default Lowland and highland gorillas


I recently read, then lost the ref, that these two have been shown via
genetic ****ysis to be one species. Can anyone give me that ref?

TIA

--
John Wilkins wilkins.id.au
For long you live and high you fly,
and smiles you'll give and tears you'll cry
and all you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be
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2 24th June 18:18
mario petrinovich
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Default Lowland and highland gorillas


John Wilkins :


And then one day you find
ten years have got behind you.
No one told you when to run,
you missed the starting gun.

--
and everything under the sun is in tune
but the sun is eclipsed by the moon.

"There is no dark side of the Moon, really. As a matter of fact it
is dark spot on the Earth." -- Mario : )

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3 24th June 18:19
rmacfarl
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Default Lowland and highland gorillas


Isn't it the other way around? They've always been thought of as
subspecies (actually there are 2 lowland subspecies) but recently I
think someone made a case that they were sufficiently genetically
distinct to be different species...

Ross Macfarlane
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4 24th June 18:19
na sides
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Default Lowland and highland gorillas


Apparently it depends on whether you're referring to Eastern or
Western lowland gorillas. I was curious so I did some searching. This
page contains some references:

http://www.westerngorilla.org/Genetics.htm

Which seems to indicate that Eastern gorillas (mountain and lowland)
constitute one species while Western populations form another species.
Apparently there are five subspecies.


It seems that, because of conflicting results obtained from
mitochondrial and nuclear DNA ****ysis, there was considerable
disagreement until fairly recently:
<http://www.berggorilla.de/english/gjournal/texte/20syst.html>

"Some of the recent discussion of revising gorilla taxonomy has been
motivated by results from studies examining the amount of genetic
distance between gorilla populations. Maryellen Ruvolo and co-workers
sequenced a portion of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) and found that the
difference between eastern and western gorillas was about the same as
that seen between common chimpanzees and bonobos. Since chimps and
bonobos are considered different species, it was suggested that
perhaps we should recognize two species of gorillas. Likewise, Karen
Garner and Oliver Ryder found the same picture when they sequenced a
different part of mtDNA.
Recently, Michael Jensen-Seaman and Ken Kidd examined yet another
region of mtDNA in western and eastern gorillas. They found very
similar results as had previous studies of mtDNA. That is, that the
amount of difference between eastern and western gorillas was about as
large as that seen between chimpanzees and bonobos. This suggests that
western and eastern gorillas have been reproductively isolated for
perhaps as long as 2 or 3 million years.
However, these same researchers also examined DNA sequence variation
in the nuclear genome of these same gorillas and chimpanzees, but
found somewhat different results. Specifically, they found that the
eastern and western gorillas were not nearly as different from each
other as were chimps and bonobos. This pattern was consistent across
multiple nuclear genetic loci, and suggests that perhaps western and
eastern gorillas have been in reproductive contact much more recently
than have chimps and bonobos.
It is difficult to explain the discrepancy between the mtDNA and the
nuclear DNA findings. In general, we expect the differences between
the two genomes to be roughly similar, except for species in which
females do not transfer from their natal group. Since female gorillas
do transfer, the different patterns observed cannot be due to any
simple ***-biased dispersal pattern."

Here's a report of an April 2000 gathering of primate specialists
where new taxonomic classifications were confirmed.

http://www.conservation.org/xp/news/press_releases/2000/040500.xml

"The gorillas, previously considered a single species, were divided
into two species and five subspecies. The eastern gorilla (Gorilla
beringei) includes the mountain gorilla (Gorilla beringei beringei) of
the Virunga Volcanoes area of Rwanda, Uganda and the Democratic
Republic of Congo, the yet unnamed, but distinct, population of
Uganda's Bwindi (Impenetrable) Forest, and the eastern lowland gorilla
(Gorilla beringei graueri). Western Africa is home to at least two
additional taxa, the western lowland gorilla (Gorilla gorilla gorilla)
and the Cross River gorilla (Gorilla gorilla diehli)."


NAS
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5 24th June 18:20
wilkins
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Default Lowland and highland gorillas


Perfect! Thank you very much. I was misremembering it seems. You just
saved me from an egregious error.

--
John Wilkins wilkins.id.au
For long you live and high you fly,
and smiles you'll give and tears you'll cry
and all you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be
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6 24th June 18:20
na sides
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Default Lowland and highland gorillas


:0)

NAS
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7 27th June 20:42
zolota
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Default Lowland and highland gorillas


Out of curiosity I wish a question. You say there are five gorilla
sub-species. Using the same yardstick that concluded this, how many
sub-species of dogs are there? How many sub-species of cats, or people?

Z
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8 27th June 20:42
philip deitiker
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Default Lowland and highland gorillas


On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 06:50:26 GMT, "zolota"
<zolota3@REMOVEshaw.ca> did some sarious thank'n and
scribbled:


Dog at present:
Canis lupus familiaris
Canis lupus dingo

Dog however is a subspecies of the following
Canis latrans
Canis lupus lupus (Eurasian wolf
Canis lupus rufus
and many others

All in all there are probably 10 or so valid canis
subspecies in the world. I should not that the african wild
dogs and jackels in africa do not interbreed regularly, thus
are probably species. Coyotes and wolves do not regularly
interbreed however they can, and so can coyotes and dogs,
however there fertility has been brought into question.

http://www.fs.fed.us/database/feis/animals/mammal/calu/introductory.html

All of which are sister subspecies with dogs and can
interbreed.

Several breeds of dogs are neccesarily interbred with canis
lupus on a regular basis

The malamut and the alaskan and siberian sled dogs are
interbred with Canis lupus arctos and similar subspecies.

The lupus species dingo, which was recently moved into
the Canis lupus dingo is probably a derivative of canis
lupus familiaris [IOW a ferrel dog subspecies] further
complicating matters.

Canis lupus dingo = ferral canis lupus familiaris =
domesticated canis lupus lupus.

Isn't life grand.
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9 27th June 20:43
cai
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Default Lowland and highland gorillas


I don't know about dogs&cats but concerning humans, the genetic
difference in mtDNA e.g. between Gorilla beringei beringei and Gorilla
beringei graueri is ~2-3 bigger than between human populations. Hence
the latter can't be considered as sub_species comparable to the diverse
kind of Gorillas.

Michael
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10 27th June 20:43
philip deitiker
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Default Lowland and highland gorillas


On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 00:04:31 +0100, cai@pirin.ha (mb) did
some sarious thank'n and scribbled:

Agreed and would add there are no apparent boundaries
between humans, there probably were in the past, but within
the last 3000 years what was not a part of a gradient has
since become part of a gradient.
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