rusty shackleford

Is the (m)(t)RNA molecule encoded in the DNA? I was reading a book that
says it was and it sounded like a strange loop as how did it first start if
the mechanism that reads the code is also embedded in the code?

--
Rusty Shackleford

'What ever happens, happens necessarily'

mhaefner@NOSPAMsbcglobal.net

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bob

Are you talking about the RNA that serves when regular messages get
broken? Yes, it is coded for by DNA.


Who knows. 4 billion years of history, much of which is obscure. The
whole machinery of genetics is encoded by the genes. Why pick on this
guy?

bob

rusty shackleford

Sorry Bob, I wasn't really picking on the guy I was just curious as it
seemed so strange to me. I guess it is possible as it resembles a recursive
function in a program that calls itself but I tried to envision how it
called itself originally and was dumbfounded. I guess you can't question
the Master Programmer as that is a recursive function in itself.

--
Rusty Shackleford

'What ever happens, happens necessarily'

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bob

Don't know why it is any stranger than any other genetic function. And
no idea what kind of point you are trying to make by talking about
recursion. The discovery of tm-RNA solved a long standing mystery. It
clearly fills a useful role, and the pressure for it to develop would
have been high. It is also now recognized as part of the greatly
expanded set of roles for RNA in gene expression. I wouldn't worry
about how it was recruited (unless you are a researcher in the area,
in which case you know the tools that are available). Maybe a
primitive form of it merely released the ribosome.


bob

rusty shackleford

For some odd reason you think that I am attacking the concepts of Molecular
Biology. I'm fascinated by what little I know and was just asking a simple
question to see how people who were schooled in this area of Microbiology
would enlighten me. I am not asking the question because I think Molecular
Biology is a bunch of hogwash, it's obviously not with all the Biotech that
has resulted from its research. I was merely reading a book "Godel, Escher,
Bach" by Douglas R. Hofstadter and found this passage in one of the
Archilles & the Tortoise dialogs.

"Archilles: Molecular biology is filled with peculiar convoluted loops
which I can't quite understand, such as the way the folded proteins, which
are coded for in DNA, can loop back and manipulate the DNA which they came
from, possibly even destroying it. Such Strange loops always confuse the
daylights out of me. They're eerie, in a way."

Reading this I thought maybe I could get some insight from this newsgroup on
this subject, that's all it was and nothing Anti-Microbiology.

After reading my question over again I guess one could confuse it with some
Christian anti-Darwinist drivel but actually it was meant to extract
information and not to challenge the science of Microbiology.

I guess I should stay away from newsgroups such as this one as they are more
focused on people who are trained in this line of work and not for the
curious laymen.


--
Rusty Shackleford

'What ever happens, happens necessarily'

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bob

Not really. It wasn't clear what your point was, and any elaboration
would be welcomed. That is how discussions proceed. Nothing wrong with
the initial post being cryptic, but then we make progress.


Ok. I have not read the book, but can imagine. I can guess that this
was part of a dialog in which questions are posed and answered, in
order to reveal ideas.

What is the response?


Biological systems are highly interconnected and regulated networks.
They are quite robust -- in that they function reasonably with wide
variation in input and conditions. (An example... Typical humans eat
whatever, and maintain a near constant weight for about 50 years.)
This requires many regulatory loops. It is a natural property of
proteins (in the quotation above) that they bind DNA, often with
specificity. Nature has selected for such interactions that are
favorable for survival, and that includes "good" regulatory proteins.

The classic example is the lac repressor in bacteria, which provides
that the bacteria make the enzymes used to "eat" lactose only when it
is present. Not making the enzymes when there is no lac to eat is
favorable; nature selected for it.

For complex organisms, such as humans... we start as a single cell,
which over time divides and differentiates to make different kinds of
cells (eg, liver cells, blood cells). Different genes function in
different kinds of cells, due (in large part) to regulatory proteins
that bind to the DNA.


Your original question seemed to be about tmRNA. That has no
particular relevance to the quote above. ?? And the loops you talked
about originally seemed to be loops in RNA, but now seem more likely
to be regulatory loops.

bob

trond erik vee aune

All enzymes are coded for in DNA, even those that make up the machinery
that reads DNA and makes enzymes. So the question is how did this
arrangement come to be, how did it all start? This is ****ogues to the
old paradox about the hen and the egg. The questions is both good and
interesting. It all seems to have started in what we believe was a "RNA
world" (long before the first cells emerged), in this world the only
replicationg organic entities were RNA molecules with catalytic
functions (such RNA molecules are called ribozymes, and they still exist
in all living cells). Unfortunately I don't know how it evolved from the
RNA world to today's arrangement with proteins, but these guys seem to:
"The Path From The RNA World"
Poole et al., J.Mol.Evol., 1997.
http://tinyurl.com/23wz6

Hope this was of help.
Trond Erik

--
Trond Erik Vee Aune
Department of Biotechnology
Norwegian University of Science and Technology
Email: trondaun@REMOVETHISBEFOREREPLYING!!biotech.ntnu.no
http://www.biotech.ntnu.no/molgen

- Must be sad being a dyslectic, agnostic insomniac, lying
awake during the night, wondering if there really is a dog

n10

Hi Rusty

I think you question is excellent.One thinks about the subject with the
current knowledge and one hits a wall or has to let it go a selctive
pressure or some similar conclusions.

Truth is current knwoledge cant answer your question exactly or precisely at
this time. SO there is a marvellous and tatntalising gap ion knowledge.

My simple mind can see how pressures would arise to facillitate the
biological phenomena you wonder about. For me the foundations in this and
other areas lies in intrinsics. Without intrinsic characterisitics life
would never have formed . DNA RNA intrisically has the potential to encrypte
or store data.

In nature and as a fundimental principal we can observe that where a non
random phenomena exists or charaterisitics exists there is a strong tendency
for a dynamic interaction to occur withe environment.

ss Nuclearic acids bases are extremely and characteristically reactive
with homologous nucleotides.

A code is a code and therefore begs decoding like a river running to the sea
its part of the natural order. Life by random exploration alone blindly
finds ways to interact with the charcateristics of the molescules of life.

Best N10