topcat

Let's throw this debate out to the crack committees in the other newsgroups.
I listed these centers as being better than Alonzo Mourning in response to
Byron Scott saying that Alonzo is "one of the greatest" and Tom saying he
was top 10 material. Tom's reply can be read above.


Shaq
Kareem
Walton
Chamberlain
Mikan
Russell
Reed
Ewing
Robinson
Olajuwon
Lanier
McAdoo (when he was with Buffalo)
Cowens (Zo and Cowens are close, imo)
Gilmore
Parrish


Is Zo better than any of these? Any others you think are/were better than
him?

TC

PS. Tom, I totally disagree with you on Parrish and McAdoo. I don't know if
you're old enough to have seen him play, but when he had Ernie D. as his
point guard, he was basically unstoppable. Parrish and Zo are close, but I'd
have to give the nod to Parrish. He was constantly being overshadowed by
Bird and McHale, but without him I doubt the Celtics win as much as they did
in the 80's.

There is no doubt that injuries put a crimp in Waltons career, but there is
also no doubt he had better skills than Zo when he was healthy and did play.


TC

neil cerutti

Walton was great *when* he was great, though. I don't want to
disqualify people like Bernard King for reasons of injury.


There is some evidence that Robert Parish was the most important
player of the Celtics during the 1980s. I don't know how long it
lasted, but I thought there was a stronger correlation with how
many minutes Robert played in game and winning percentage than
with any of the other guys.


Outplay? Maybe not. But they were as good as him; easily.

Yall forgot:

Mo-Mo-Mo-Moses Malone
Brad Daugherty
Roy Tarpley Wes Unseld


It's one R in Parish--like the name of a church.

Personally, I rank Mourning, at his best, up there with the best
"short" centers in history--Cowens, Unseld and Olajuwan.

Most of the giants on the list above would have beaten him most
of the time, but not all the time. Cowens and Unseld held their
own remarkably well, and Alonzo would have done fine.

--
Neil Cerutti

tom

if


I'd


did

is

play.


Why I think he deserves to be in ( or close ) to the top ten of all time is
because of his defense. Most of the guys on that list put up better
offensive numbers than Zo, but few of them, IMO, were the kind of defensive
terrors that he was. I really consider this to be an important attribute in
changing the dynamics of the game and his shot-blocking and hustle on
defense really made him stand out in my opinion. That's why I would
consider him over Parish, Cowens, Walton, etc.

Obviously, some disagree - and I have a feeling the group NBA newsgroup
consensus is going to disagree with me, but hey - it's a free country.

Tom

celtsfan44

If I remember correct there was but that was usually a misleading stat since
Parish's absence
usually meant the Celtics had to play some very weak backup centers...

Although McHale could play backup center, Parish missing games usually
meant major minutes for stiffs like Greg Kite, Fernstein, a calcified Artis
Gilmore etc. Other then McHale or Walton for his short run with the
Celtics,
the backup centers were usually stiffs...

Now if Bird or McHale was out, the Celtics usually had another decent foward
on
the roster....Maxwell, Pickney, Wedman etc.

And I just looked at Parish's career stats... He missed about 42 games in
his entire
career with the Celtics so we are talking about an incredibly small sample
size.... 18 of those
games missed where when Bird and McHale were no longer in their prime..

Parish IMHO was not at Zo's former level but perhaps almost as good of a fit
with the Celtics... I tend to think Zo was the better go to scorer when you
need
a bucket and also the better defender...

Parish was arguably a better finisher around the hoop... e.g. when defenses
gambled off of Parish to double Bird -- and they did this to mix things
up --, Parish
was excellent at rolling to the hoop and slamming the ball.

topcat

He's definitely Top 10. Better than Zo.


I wasn't as impressed with him. I think Zo is better.


I rate Zo over Tarp.
I'd have to give the edge to Unseld over Zo.


Thanks. I didn't think it looked right.


Definitely, with the "short" centers.

I hope Zo has one or two more big seasons left in him. If so, he might move
up on my list.

TC

tom

You make some good points, but I hope you don't honestly think Tarply and
Daugherty were anywhere near as good as Zo in their peaks. No way.
Daugherty was a wuss and Tarpley never really did all that much.

Unseld and Malone however... Darn good big men.

Tom

raymond decampo

If defense is so important, Mutombo should be on the list before Mourning.

As for another poster comparing him with Olajuwon -- get real. Hakeem
was the best player on two championship teams and the only player on
those teams playing at a HoF level. Mourning never came close to that.

Ray

tom

Nah, because mourning had good offense and great defence - mutombo was completely one dimensional.


Nobody compared him to Olajuwon, from what I've read of the thread.

Mourning also came up ill before he was the age that Hakeem was great at -
I'm not saying he would have risen to that level, but he never even had the
chance.

Tom

gary collard

Definitely all of these except maybe Reed are above Zo to me. Reed is
actually pretty similar to Zo, nice peak but not really as much career
value as you would like (acknoledging that Zo can still add more).


Yes, similar peak and longer career


Since only part of his career was at center, I will rank him below Zo as a
center but above him as a player, if that makes sense.

Lanier Lite, Zo can pass him with some work


Career value pushes him past Zo

You forgot a few:

Moses Malone - clearly better
Unseld - different kind of player but similar value
Mel Daniels - underappreciated because he played in the ABA, but
essentially Willis Reed's equal
Zelmo Beaty - also somewhat similar to Reed and Daniels and close to Zo
thus far
Walt Bellamy - yet another second tier guy who is comparable, Zo will need
to play more to pass him
Nate Thurmond - maybe better at peak

Zo is in a big group in the second tier of all time centers. He is not a
top 10 center, but is a top 25 and could well be in the 15-20 range.

--
Gary Collard
SABR-L Moderator
collardg@earthlink.net

"I don't think it's a given that a surge in voting by Klansmen, black
racists, pimps, or strippers-who-sleep-with-their-brothers would
improve America's politics."
-- Jonah Goldberg on Jerry Springer running for U.S. Senate

coorslte

Thanks for mentioning the ABA centers (yeah I know Beatty and Malone
played in the NBA also). Mel Daniels was a very underrated player.
Probably not Hall of Fame, but definitely wouljd have made a few
all-star teams.

Most people don't remember him but for 2 or 3 years Walt Bellamy was an
offensive force in the NBA and could have competed with anybody.