celtsfan

<snip>


Only time will tell but here's a snippet from USA today....

****************************

COMPARATIVE UPSIDE: Baron Davis, Stephon Marbury COMPARATIVE DOWNSIDE: Jay
Williams

*********************
I used the Hardaway comparison for Banks' upside since I've heard
several Warrior fans compare him to Hardaway on sports talk radio. Banks is
a bit taller. Both are well built.

Hardaway was playing with a running team that scoreed over 115
ppg... In today's low scoring era on a normal team that didn't favor offense
over defense, that maybe the equivalent of 17-18 ppg. Can Banks score 17-18
ppg with the Celtics eventually, I wouldn't be surprised. Also, with
Hardaway his second year was arguably his best... it's not like he got much
better, he kind of slid.

Would I count on it or bet on Banks eventually having a Hardaway type
impact? No but IMHO Banks is as good
of a bet as any PG in this draft not named Lebron. I see no consensus at
all on who will be the second best PG.


Travis Best might be a real good player but if he was Banks' height. PG's
under 6ft normally don't
do much in today's game and that is why many teams were skeptical about TJ
Ford. Ford may be taller
then Best too.

Banks probably has 2.5-3 inches on Best and that makes a huge difference.

Also, I'm only saying he has a chance to be an all star later but not as a
rookie. I'm not
ruling it out or in. Chances are he won't but that same statement applies
to TJ Ford etc.

1)) Well, the trade up really did nothing besides lower the Celtics payroll
cost
by a minor amount since all indications point that Ainge got the players he
realistically wanted.

3) Also, you have to remember this is a draft where according to Ainge and
most
of the talent evaluators the talent levels off after the first
3 or 4. The 6th-10th picks collectively might not be much better then
the 20th-30th picks. It wasn't going to be hard for Banks or anyone
else(see Troy Bell) to move
up or down alot based upon workouts.

4) Also, players outside of the media limelight often get overlooked.. I'm
wondering where
Shawn Marion was rated 2 months before his draft...

5) Also where a guy was ranked months ago doesn't really mean that much...
Perkins was
ranked quite high by nbadraft.net for months if I remember correctly... His
stock fell
as Euros etc. entered the draft and because he didn't look explosive in the
McDonald's game.. Does that mean he was a value pick at 27.. not really.

Other then the top picks, I don't put much stock in those mock drafts since
they change like the wind.


Sure I agree with this logic if you apply it too Hinrich, TJ Ford, Ridnour,
Bell, Gaines etc.

The only 2 or 3 guys that look like good bets to be all stars by the
"experts" are Lebron,
Milicic and perhaps Anthony. After that if you project every other guy not
to be
an all star, you will probably be right 85% of the time.

Seriously, I will blast or criticize Ainge if I feel he deserves it but
at least I will try to
backup my opinion why Ainge should be blasted.

At some point, I'm sure Ainge will make some moves that I disagree with when
they are made but so far I have liked all of
the moves that he has made. e.g extending O'Brien, saying that Pierce and
Walker are tradeable but not undervaluing them, drafting a PG who could be
real good, and taking a gamble on getting a good center. Admitting the C's
aren't that close to a title.


Pitino is still friends with Jim O'Brien and probably Wallace... Despite
things
not working out, I doubt he hates the Celtics either. It would only make
sense for Wallace/O'Brien
to have conversations with Pitino about Gaines.. With O'Brien/Wallace,
Pitino is
much more apt to be honest since there is a level of trust with
O'Brien/Wallace.

That being said, if I had to guess Pitino likes Gaines but thinks Banks will
be a
better nba player... Why do I say that... I have a gut feeling if Banks was
gone
at 16 and Gaines was available, Boston would have drafted him at 16 or 20.

Ainge was either blowing smoke but he was quoted that there were advantages
to a
big backcourt even if 1 of the players wasn't a pure PG... Ainge basically
stated
that neither he or DJ was a pure PG. I think that was either Ainge blowing
smoke so Orlando would
select Gaines and not Banks or Ainge preparing the fanbase for the selection
of Gaines.(if Banks was unavailable).

chris hafner

He wasn't the GM, but yeah - you've gotta think he was closely involved in the process.


You make good points, and it's true that their college careers were very
dissimilar. I would say, though, that it's also pretty clear that what
happens in college doesn't usually translate directly to the NBA. It's another apples-to-oranges comparison.


I definitely hope you're right, and I defer to your research.

There's a big gulf between Joe Johnson and Jalen Rose. Rose was either the
No. 1 or No. 2 player on an NBA Finals team, depending on which night it
was.

And, to be honest, most draftees wind up as busts or bench players anyway.
It's way too easy to point at former draftees who came in with big hype but
fizzled. DerMarr Johnson is a good example of that (even before his
accident) - a long, athletic guy who was supposed to make a big splash
immediately with his athleticism and then add skills.

That kind of cautionary tale applies equally to Banks as it does to Gaines,
Barbosa or Plainic. Not totally, of course - all of those guys IMO already
have more basketball skills than DerMarr.

<insert Walker cheap shot here>

really


I'm hopeful too. I don't really want to continue this thread too far,
because it puts me in the position of arguing against Banks - something I'm
not really inclined to do. My point really is just that I can understand the
thinking of those who are/were disappointed. And, to be honest, I think that
burned off within a day or two of the draft.

Cheers,
Chris Hafner

chris hafner

Jeez ... Jay Williams is his comparative downside? Williams didn't have a
great rookie season, but he certainly wasn't bad. And given what he
accomplished in college and the fact that he was learning the triangle
during this rookie season, a worst-case-scenario of a rookie point guard
turning into Jay Williams is pretty funny. An upside of Baron Davis and
Stephon Marbury with a downside of Jay Williams reeks of breathless hype to me.


I'm not saying that's wrong, but look at the source! :-)

Physique-wise, I can definitely see the comparison. Athleticism and
quickness, I can definitely see it too. But from what I know of Banks,
Hardaway's playmaking, passing and shooting were at a much higher level.
Hardaway was a star - Banks has useful tools and will be a good player, but
becoming a star is a whole different plateau and the jury is out as to
whether he has the game to develop into that. I'm not saying that to slam
Banks, just that it's an unfair comparison.

A lot of that is a result of those knee injuries, I think. Had Hardaway gone
injury-free, I think he would've been a perennial all-star.

Your points about game pace are well-taken, but 18 PPG is still a pretty
major milestone in today's NBA from the point guard position. Banks will
have to turn out well indeed to be a 18 PPG scorer in his first few years.
And it's not just the scoring - Tim was a great all-around point guard. Guys
like Jason Terry can score, but that's the extent of their game.

There was a pretty strong consensus on Ford and Hinrich. I don't know that
they'll turn out to be better players, but there was a pretty widespread
consensus that there was a distinct drop-off behind Ford and Hinrich. FWIW,
*my* perception was that guys like Gaines, Ridnour and Barbosa had higher
stock than Banks before the draft as well. Again, FWIW.


It's a difference, but it's not that major a difference. Height isn't quite
as important as scouting reports often make it out to be. The problem with
Best isn't really his height - it's the fact that he's not a real playmaker,
isn't a great defender, and looks too much for his own offense.

It worked out just fine, if in fact Perkins was the guy Ainge really wanted
(leaving out the possibility of post-draft spin).


Very true - lots of parity in this draft.

Another good point.


Yes, it's just one source of information for us fans - not the whole
picture. Scouting reports are another, as is watching the games.

I'm just operating with what I've got.

Oh, absolutely. While this is one of the deeper drafts at the point guard
position, the odds are maybe one or two of this year's crop will wind up
being really good - and it's almost impossible at this point to tell which
one(s).

It's way premature to paint *any* of these guys as Tim Hardaway redux - or
Stephon Marbury, Jason Kidd, Steve Nash, Gary Payton etc. My expectations
for the Sonics' draftee, Ridnour, are about the same as they are for Banks -
make a splash in certain situations, help create easier shots in short
stretches of play, and use his rookie year to season and work on his
weaknesses

To be honest, I expect Banks to make a bigger difference this year because
the Celtics so desperately need what he has to offer.


Yup - pre-draft hype notwithstanding.
<snip>

As opposed to?


Yeah. I agree with everything so far except the quick O'Brien extension, and
even there I can understand the reasoning behind it.

I'm still dubious about the idea that Pitino told the Celtics brass that
Banks would be better than Gaines - even if he believes that, which I
haven't really seen any reason to believe either. And it was reportedly
Ainge who was starstruck by Banks, not O'Brien/Wallace.

That's all leaving aside the fact that playing the "Pitino thinks he's a
good player" card in this newsgroup isn't exactly an instant
discussion-winner!


will

My question exactly.


was

That doesn't really answer the above question. Maybe I'm missing your point?
I'd agree that the Celtics would've taken Gaines at 16 with Banks off the
board, but what does that have to do with Pitino or his alleged opinions?


advantages


blowing


selection


I'd buy that - though the advantages of size in the backcourt are pretty
common knowledge.

Cheers,
Chris Hafner