marcus kwan

Sorry-you are correct. I meant to say that Odom has move twice,
whether by being traded or released

Should we now start defining 'impact' players as players who once had
an impact for a short time? If he can consistently bring it, then I
will say that he is an impact player. Right now, he has not shown
that. That is not to say he can't or won't, but right now he is unproven.

Exactly. Butler will not have the ball much, so his value on the team
will not be that great. When you already have a scorer like Kobe, you
don't need another player whose strength is as a primary scorer. You
need complementary players. Not an indictment of Butler the player,
just pointing out that his game would not be a good fit on the Kobe Lakers.

marcus kwan

You are aware that they lost Jackson last season. You are also aware
that they have replaced Turkoglu with Brent Barry, a player who might
not have as much potential, but has proven to be a better shooter.
And I am not sure how losing Hedo makes Duncan not iso Grant all day.

And I am not sold on Billups. He had a great series, and is a great
fit for Detroit. But he has some pretty big flaws in his game.


I really don't consider Boozer and Martin impact players. They have a
lot to prove before I would consider them to be anything more than 'nice' players.

Only if you commit your entire team to trapping/stealing ala the 90's
Sonics. Individuals who try and go for the steal as their primary
form of defense will get burnt most of the time. Consider that a
player who makes 3 steals per game is considered to have a lot of
steals. But how many times does that player not make the steal and
leave himself out of position.

The Kings and Mavs have decent perimeter defenders, yet are horrible
defensive teams because of the lack of shot blockers. Contrawise, the
Spurs and Pistons have taken extremely mediocre defenders like Stephen
Jackson, Hedo, and Rip Hamilton and made them effective defenders due
to help defense and shot blocking.


Have you watched Kobe play?

g. smitts

"Unproven?" Check the stats.

One his strength isn't one dimensional, again check the stats.

Shaq has said that any player on the Lakers can become a star any
given night because when teams press-D on him & Kobe they'd kick
out the ball to the hot hand, punishing the opposing team.

Butler is going to get a lot of kick outs from Kobe & Odom. Plus imo
he's a good enough player that there will be set plays created for
him.

marcus kwan

About a 16 ppg scorer for teams that have a record of 154-256 (about a
..376 percent record). Decent stats, bad teams. If he is, as you say,
an impact player, I would not say his impact was very good.

5 rpg, and 2.7 apg. Not bad, but really nothing that shocks me senseless.

That is correct-when you have a low post presence that demands a
double team down low, it is easy to get open shots. This is much more
difficult when you do not have the post presence. Odom does not
demand a double team, and the help on Kobe will usually be coming from
the middle, not the perimeter.


Odom will not likely draw a lot of double teams, and kick out passes
from perimeter players like Kobe do not usually result in the same
kind of spacing.


Look, Odom, Grant, and Butler are all nice players. Maybe Odom has
star potential, maybe not. But you are talking about trading three
'good' players for Shaq. No one is ever going to restructure their
defensive plan, much less their personel, around trying to stop Grant,
Odom, and Butler. The net out is very much a negative for the Lakers.
Three players with good numbers earned on medicore to bad teams (42
and 40 in the East is no better than mediocre) are not worth Shaq,
even in his present state.

g. smitts

So Barry is "proven" and Odom is "unproven"...ridiculous.

Because its a 5 on 5 game. And when LA presses D on Duncan
he has to kick out to someone & all he has are streaky shooters.

Odom gets to kick out to Kobe and Butler. Advantage LA.


He's still an MVP with a ring.


Barry is "proven" but Boozer, Kmart, Odom have a lot to prove.

((rolling eyes))

g. smitts

Odom's regular season stats: 17 ppg ~ 9 rpg ~ 4 apg ~ 1 spg. http://www.nba.com/playerfile/lamar_odom/index.html?nav=page

His playoff stats didn't impress you? 12 ppg ~ 8 rpg ~ 2 spg. http://www.nba.com/playerfile/caron_butler/index.html?nav=page


So Odom is unproven, doesn't demand doubles, but Barry is proven.

This is reminding me of Jerry Seinfeld's Bizarro episode.

marcus kwan

The stats I was referencing were his career stats. If you want to
refute someone as being unproven, you really should not try and stress one good year.


Not really. His scoring went down. Plus, rebounding from a small
forward is often smoke and mirrors, not something you can count on
(particularly in a small sample size, like one playoff)


LOL. There is another guy on the Spurs. Maybe you have heard of him.
He has won the MVP a couple of times.

Barry will be sitting by himself at the three point line waiting for the kickout.

It really is. Anytime you trade the most dominant scorer in the game
who has won 3 championships for 1 worn down, undersized center, and
two young players who have heretofore only had good(not great) numbers
on bad to mediocre teams, and claim that your team got better, that is
bizarro.

marcus kwan

Barry is very proven. As a journey man. Where in the hell do you see
me trying to claim Barry as equal, in any way shape or form, or in any
part, to Shaq, as you are trying to do with Odom? Are you really this
stupid? Barry is a very known quantity, has proven his value as a
role player. That's all he is. If I were to use riddiculous phrases
like 'star in the making' or imply that he was worthy of being part of
a Shaq trade, then, by all means, blast me.

Barry is easily in the same class, though, as the players you
mentioned. Jackson and Hedo.

As you like to say, check the stats. I bet you will find thaty Barry
is a better shooter than Hedo, and has been a better shooter for many years.

Show me why Odom should be doubled before you start claiming that he
will be kicking the ball out. A career 16 ppg scorer does not strike
fear into my heart, particularly when he will be playing out of
position at the 4. The guy will not get routinely doubled.

Be specific. he is a finals MVP. He had a great series, and was the
perfect player to exploit the Lakers weakness at the point. But he
has never made an all-star game, has never been among leaders in
points or assists.


Can you please tell me where I said that Barry was a proven star or
impact player? You really can't be this stupid, can you? He is
proven to be a better shooter. Refute this, rather than try and
clumsily take things out of context.

Also, you are trying to claim that Boozer, KMart, and Odom are proven
impact players, yet none have shown this. Roll your eyes all you
want, you have still shown yourself to be an idiot.

g. smitts

I've never compared Shaq to Odom. They don't even play the
same position. I've just been countering your b.s. on Odom.

In your bizarro world, Barry is a proven value. But Odom is
unproven, not an impact player, & doesn't require doubles.

I saw Odom doubled in the playoffs. All your posts show me
is that you never bothered to watch the Heat's playoff games.

marcus kwan

You are trying to claim that Odom is part of an equitable trade
package for Shaq.


You really are dense. Barry is a proven player, as a role player.
Odom is not proven as a star or an impact player. We are making two
different claims here.

If the Spurs had a chance to pick up Odom for the money they are
paying Barry, I would be ecxstatic, and say that Odom has proven to be
at least that valuable as a player. But as the best player in a trade
for Shaq, he is very much an unproven quantity. He has star
potential, but not star status. Unless you think averaging 16 ppg and
a career win/loss record under .400 is the definition of a proven star.


Nope, didn't catch them. And never had any chances to see Odom in any
other meangful, post season games, either, as he wasn't in any.
Somehow, I have a hard time seeing a 17 ppg scorer get doubled
consistently, the way that Shaq or Duncan do.