ambchang@hotmail.com

Was he a great basketball player? Certainly. He was a 3-time Finals
MVP, perennial all-star, scoring champ, 3 championships, MVP for a
year, even All-star MVP!
Is he still one? Probably. Last year, despite playing with 3 other
future HoFers, he still averaged over 20 points and 10 rebounds, and
was undoubtedly the top center in the league. Barring any serious
injuries, those averages are expected to go back to his previous
career averages of about 27/12.
So why is he overrated?
Has he ever won 8 straight championships? Forget that, what about 6,
like Mike, or 5, like Magic? OK, it's not fair, those Boston teams
were loaded with HoFers, Mike had weak competition, Magic had Kareem
and Worthy (didn't Shaq have Kobe, Payton and Malone, still couldn't
win the title and played against teams like the 76ers, NJ and Indiana
in the ones he did win?)
What about winning a championship with no other all-star worthy player
like Hakeem and Duncan did? Nope, never did that. He couldn't even
bring a team to the playoffs with a team like that! So it was his
rookie season, what about years before Kobe was an all-star? Shaq's
team got killed in the playoffs!
On an individual level, Shaq wasn't a great defensive player. He
never won the DPoY despite his tremendous strength, agility and
quickness. And out of his 12 years in the league, he was selected as
an all-defensive team member only twice! And that's SECOND team, not
first.
But he was a dominant offensive force! You say. So ... has he ever
scored 100 points a game? What about 70? The league's scoring have
dropped drastically over the last decade, so let's just compare him to
the players in his era.
Out of 12 seasons in the league, he only led the league in scoring
once. Allen Iverson led the league in scoring once in that span,
McGrady twice! And those two would NEVER be considered the most
dominant scorers in the history of the game.
He never led the league in rebounding, nor in blocks. He does shoot
very accurately from the field, but you'd never say Artis Gilmore or
James Donaldson are the most dominant scorer in the league ever, would
you?
Shaq was, and still is a great great player, just don't put him in the
category with Wilt, Russell, Moses Malone, or even Hakeem. He's
clearly in the second tier category.

eichler4

In what ways should I dissect this lame argument.....


Exactly, there are way too many teams now which means you aren't going to
have a strong player at each position unless you buy your team, and contrary
to popular belief, Buss is a cheapskate who doesn't want to pay for
talent... This is exactly why Van Exel was shipped off years ago.

(didn't Shaq have Kobe, Payton and Malone, still couldn't

He did have a WORTHLESS Payton, Malone with a torn knee, and Kobe who was
healthy, but lets not blame Shaq for a series where Kobe seemed to shoot
8-27 every time and only played one good game out of 5. You want to trash
the Lakers, fine.. But Shaq's supporting cast failed miserably.

Props to Hakeem and Duncan, but you are talking about teams that had
tremendous team defense, and tremendous outside shooting to compliment the
big guys. What tremendous outside shooting did the Lakers have?

Nope, never did that. He couldn't even


Shaq at the top of his game would put any team in the NBA into the playoffs.


So it was his

Shaq's teams got embarrased for a few years. He has to take some blame for
that, but look at the teams he was on. Non defensive playing whiners who
pouted over shot attempts. Team chemistry was always a huge issue.


He's one of the best one on one post defenders in the history of the game,
but he's one of the worst ever at defending the pick and roll. He needed to
take more pride in perimeter defense.

When Wilt averaged 50 and scored 100, the lane was tiny. Put Shaq in an era
where 6 ft 9 power forwards are the only thing in his way, and give him that
tiny key where he can post even deeper, and I'd say 100 would have occured
more than once.

The league's scoring have

You are blaming Shaq now for not being selfish. First off, TMAC and IVY
will shoot 35-40 times in a game even if they are ice cold. Shaq never
tried to force shots at the expense of the team. Even you should realize if
Shaq wanted to jack up the amount of shots those guys take, he would EASILY
lead the league in scoring, and furthermore those guys didn't have to deal
with 3 defenders hanging on them all game.

Poor comparison... How many opposing teams drove themselves nuts trying to
figure out a way as a team to stop Gilmore or Donaldson? Shaq just being on
the court created a huge issue for the oppositions defensive strategy... Do
you let Shaq go one on one and score 50, or do you double him and let him
get his 25, or do you triple him and hold him to 20?


Shaq would drop 50 points on any of those guys if they dared to guard him
with no double team help. His career scoring average is higher than all but
one of those players, his career playoff average is higher than ALL of them.
His championships won are more than all but one of them. Sorry bud, you
don't like Shaq and it's obvious but your argument started logically and
your dislike for Shaq kept creeping into your logic.

swillabrew

I thought the answer was going to be because he's not a Laker anymore. : )

Time to put Albert back in his can.

IMO, Shaq is definitely 1st tier material & I'm sure the HOF will bear me
out on this.

Go Blazers !

chainsaw

Weak-ass troll. *PLONK*

igor eduardo küpfer

<snip>


Sorry to respond to such a lame troll, but I'd like to use this opportunity to
present some numbers I've been working on. I have a system which apportions
marginal team wins to players based on individual contributions. Although
these marginal wins and losses are approximate, they can allow us to compare
the career contributions of individual players.

(Note that because these numbers are based on _marginal_ contributions, it is
possible to have negative wins and negative losses. On the former, the player
performs below replacement level, which was set by me at .122, or the
equivalent of a 10-win team. On the latter, a player performs better than the
ceiling level, set to .878, or the equivalent of a 72-win team. Using marginal
wins and losses allows us to avoid rewarding mediocre players who ac***ulate
wins by merely hanging around for many years.)

Using this system, it's possible to see that Shaq's career to date compares
favourably to the great centers of the recent past. (Because the stats used
for computation are only available for the seasons beginning in 1977-78,
Abdul-Jabbar and Malone's numbers only reflect part of their careers.)

I've also included league-adjusted offensive and defensive ratings, to show
where these player's value came from. These numbers are normalised around a
mean of 100, and represent how much better or worse than league average these
players were in terms of percentage -- eg Shaq's rookie ORTG+ of 100 made him
a league average offensive player, and his DRTG+ of 108 made him 8% better
than league average. You can see that Shaq compares very well to the other
greats on both sides of the ball.

Shaquille O'Neal

YEAR TEAM AGE MWins MLosses ORTG+ DRTG+

1993 ORL 21 9 2 100 108
1994 ORL 22 12 0 112 104
1995 ORL 23 11 1 108 104
1996 ORL 24 6 2 101 104
1997 LAK 25 7 1 102 108
1998 LAK 26 8 1 107 105
1999 LAK 27 11 0 112 101
2000 LAK 28 13 -1 110 110
2001 LAK 29 11 1 110 102
2002 LAK 30 10 0 110 106
2003 LAK 31 9 0 112 101
2004 LAK 32 8 1 105 104

Career 114 7 108 105


MWins MLosses ORTG+ DRTG+

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 95 10 109 103 (stats from 1977-78+ only)
Moses Malone 123 27 107 102 (stats from 1977-78+ only)
Hakeem Olajuwon 142 21 101 110
Patrick Ewing 111 39 98 108
Robert Parish 113 28 104 105
David Robinson 134 -9 109 112


--

--------------------------------------------------------------
| best, | You're doing a lot of choppin' |
| ed | but no chips are flyin.' |
--------------------------------------------------------------
Watch the spam trap -- the domain is rogers

sports fan

Wow.
How lame can you be?
You're simply inviting everyone to put your sorry ass in their kill
files.

drg_75@pacbell.net

Shaq clearly belongs in the top tier. What bothers me about Shaq is
that instead of just being in the top tier he had the opportunity to
be the greatest center ever with his natural gifts and failed to take
advantage of that opportunity. If you look at his lifetime stats, as a
friend pointed out to me, there are two years that really stand out in
terms of his averages. His rookie year and his 1999-2000 MVP year.
There is no reason why he couldn't have achieved that level of
dominance in his other years. Sure there were some injuries here and
there, but I think some of it also has to do with determination and
focus. Remember the movies and the rap albums. Then after he won his
first championship he took the summer off, supposedly because of
Phil's advice. The Lakers still won two more championships but Shaq's
game plateaued and even started to decline.

However, Shaq isn't finished yet, and if he leads Miami to a
championship (which I doubt) he could still become the greatest center
ever.

mitchell.mark@comcast.net

Not sure what your "objective" was with this post, but since you
didn't even include Kareem in the above short list, your credibility
is questionable. My take is that Wilt, Russell and Kareem are in the
first tier. Hakeem leads the second tier, but I'd put Shaq and Moses
right behind him. And the difference between the first tier and the
second tier is not that great.

pauls2272@yahoo.com (paul

Van Exel was shipped due to attitude problems. The Lakers got nothing
for him. The Jones/Campbell trade for Rice was entirely financially
motivated and was stupid to boot. They were on a 10-12 game winning
streak when they pulled off that trade and became weaker as a result.
This was back when Buss was adamant about staying under the salary
cap.


Lakers couldn't afford a good supporting cast due to salary cap and
Shaq's refusal to rework his money.

See above.


Absolutely agree. Shaq of 2000 was a MONSTER who was completely
unstopable. But he wouldn't have won any championships without guys
like Fox, Horry and Bryant.

He has to take all of the blame. Mostly it was throw the ball into
Shaq and stand around and watch. You don't win NBA titles like that.

the game,

You must have missed the 2003 playoffs where Duncan ABUSED Shaq in the
low post. Shaq tried guarding him and picked up 3 fouls in 3 minutes.
Shaq is many things but he is NOT one of the "best one on one post
defenders in the history of the game".

Different eras are very hard to judge. Remember that you could root
people out of the low post with knee action, both hands, etc. Shaq is
a better athelete than most of the players back in the 60s and would
score a lot but he would really have to work for his points.


I've seen Shaq force lots of shots, often against 3-4 guys. Go back to
Shaq's early days in the league - throw the ball into Shaq, the other
4 guys try to distract the defense and stand around. Shaq's game
really depended on the old man-to-man rules. Once doubling in the low
post and zones were legalized, his game suffered and he had to work
for his points.


All too true. Shaq in his prime was a big problem for opposing teams.
Probably a bigger dilema than Jordan was to opposing coaches.


guard him


Shaq would not drop 50 on Wilt. Wilt was stronger than Shaq and being
able to root Shaq out of his position (using back then legal moves)
would force Shaq to his finesse moves. Shaq is not as good shooting
from 6-8 feet than he is dunking or 2 foot chippies.

brink

i'm sure i'll be about one of 5 to point this out, but neither MJ nor magic
won 6 or 5 straight championships.

MJ won 3 (twice) and the "best" magic could do was 2 in a row.