erasmus \the mannequin\ brown

But you're disagreeing with the actual research.

py

Have you even seen the numbers? Jeter's postseason numbers almost precisely
match his regular season numbers. Granted, those get a little boost because
he's facing more quality competition, but the difference still wouldn't be
enough to say he's truly "clutch."

Same with RISP and 2 outs. Look at how eerily similar he is in all aspects
of his game throughout his career:

Bases empty: .313/.380/.475/.855
Runners on: .322/.401/.446/.847
RISP: .306/.405/.426/.831
RISP 2 outs: .312/.412/.438/.850

What does this show? He's not particularly clutch, he just does what he
always does no matter the situation.

And you say there are "MANY players who DO perform in clutch situations."
Well, list them. You'd certainly be presenting fascinating news to many
people who did endless research on this topic.

-PY

uarts69

Does everything have to have numbers to prove it?

I haven't missed a Yankees game in several years. All I'm telling you is what
I see. Certainly you guys can't be arguing that "clutch" is a tangible thing.

I don't think it is. I think it's just something that you come to realize.
Like who would you want up in a crucial situation.

Didn't mean to rock the boat. But you guys know that numbers are so shifty
in this sport...half of them are BS.


Ryan

"I don't think the typical rock fan is smart enough to know when he's been
dumped on, so it doesn't make any difference... Those kids wouldn't know
music if it came up and bit 'em on the ass." --Frank Zappa

angelo s.

Tino Martinez!

py

Well, it would seem to me that if you're going to prove that someone is
"clutch," yes, numbers would help. Or else a videotape compilation would do just fine.

thing.


Sure it is. If a player comes up in close games with runners on base, I
expect his numbers to be consistently better than usual if, indeed, he is
"clutch."

Surely you're not going to argue that a guy with a career .250 AVG with RISP
close & late would be a "clutch" hitter just because you've seen that guy's
every game, would you?

Often skewed by one's biases. The human eye and emotions are far from
perfect. If I'm a big fan of Raul Mondesi, for example, it would be very
easy for me to proclaim him to be a terrific player if we threw all the numbers out.

How so? Some can be misused, but it seems to me that fan observations are
far more undependable.

I mean, really. If I've seen practically every game, and you've seen
practically every game, how do we come to different opinions about players?

-PY

uarts69

<< Well, it would seem to me that if you're going to prove that someone is
"clutch," yes, numbers would help. Or else a videotape compilation would do
just fine.<<<

If you want me to throw something together..

what

thing.


Sure it is. If a player comes up in close games with runners on base, I
expect his numbers to be consistently better than usual if, indeed, he is
"clutch."

Surely you're not going to argue that a guy with a career .250 AVG with RISP
close & late would be a "clutch" hitter just because you've seen that guy's
every game, would you?

realize.

Often skewed by one's biases. The human eye and emotions are far from
perfect. If I'm a big fan of Raul Mondesi, for example, it would be very
easy for me to proclaim him to be a terrific player if we threw all the
numbers out.

shifty

How so? Some can be misused, but it seems to me that fan observations are
far more undependable.

I mean, really. If I've seen practically every game, and you've seen
practically every game, how do we come to different opinions about players?

-PY

Ryan

"I don't think the typical rock fan is smart enough to know when he's been
dumped on, so it doesn't make any difference... Those kids wouldn't know
music if it came up and bit 'em on the ass." --Frank Zappa

uarts69

<<

Well, it would seem to me that if you're going to prove that someone is
"clutch," yes, numbers would help. Or else a videotape compilation would do
just fine.<<<<<<

I understand...I'll get working on that montage

thing.


Sure it is. If a player comes up in close games with runners on base, I
expect his numbers to be consistently better than usual if, indeed, he is
"clutch."

Surely you're not going to argue that a guy with a career .250 AVG with RISP
close & late would be a "clutch" hitter just because you've seen that guy's
every game, would you?<<<<<

No I would'nt. But I would say that relying on a batter's numbers is
foolish also. We're arguing something that's been argued for years: The human
eye vs. Statistics. I try to work in a little of both. The problem with
numbers is they lie. Jason Giambi wouldn't be a good RBI man in Detroit. I
try to take a few things into account. And in fact, I can't even remember how this thread started.


perfect. If I'm a big fan of Raul Mondesi, for example, it would be very
easy for me to proclaim him to be a terrific player if we threw all the
numbers out.<<<

Yeah, but we're not talking about terrific...we're talking about clutch.
Coming through in key moments of key games in key situations. It'd be very
easy, being a Raul Mondesi fan also to say that he ****s in "clutch"
situations, and I bet you the numbers would back that up. And I agree, these
opinions can be swayed by bias. I'm trying to be un-biased. I'm trying to
think about players who have performed under the biggest moments and the
biggest pressure...and I feel like I can pick them out rather simply...biased or unbiased...


far more undependable

I mean, really. If I've seen practically every game, and you've seen
practically every game, how do we come to different opinions about players?<<<<

Because we're two different people with two different perspectives on the
game. I like stats, but I don't ever try to prove anything with them, because
I feel like there are holes in stats (Moneyball points that out)...I just feel
like those moments...those BIG moments...they are burned on the brain.

I see where you are coming from. Just trying to let you know where I'm
coming from...to be honest I think we're both right...either way...I appreciate
the discussion, and appreciate you not swearing at me for having a different
opinion.
I'm on the Sunday season tix plan...if you're ever there, I'd love to buy you
a beer and chat...I drive up from Philly every week, so I get there early and
get the drink on.

Take care

Ryan

PS: Sorry for the double post...I'm on a laptop...****in' buttons

Ryan

"I don't think the typical rock fan is smart enough to know when he's been
dumped on, so it doesn't make any difference... Those kids wouldn't know
music if it came up and bit 'em on the ass." --Frank Zappa

seth jackson

I hope you're joking.

- Seth Jackson

Songwriting & Music Business Info: http://www.sethjackson.net

uarts69

<< go back there when I'm done with
law school. Maybe I'll take you up on your offer then :-) OTW, maybe I'll
try to snag tix at Citizens' Bank Park and buy you what's bound to be a $15
beer.

-PY


Not from Philly...just currently residing. I grew up in North Jersey. But
yes...please do take me up on the offer.

All your points are right on...and I think in a roundabout way, I was
*trying* to say what you said rather concisely: Stats are only good when used
properly...like the whole RBI thing...

But hey...there's nothing in the world (and I've felt it a lot) like that
feeling when you KNOW the guy is going to get a hit. It's such a great thing
about baseball...and something that I find lacking in other sports...I just
love the game...

Take care

Ryan

"I don't think the typical rock fan is smart enough to know when he's been
dumped on, so it doesn't make any difference... Those kids wouldn't know
music if it came up and bit 'em on the ass." --Frank Zappa

usualnoise

Jeter, or any number of other players? One or two clutch hits don't
make you a "clutch" player. Here are Tino's career postseason numbers:

95 G, 348 AB, .239 BA, .317 OBP, .359 SLG, .676 OPS, 9 HR, 38 RBI

That's pretty abysmal, if you ask me. His post-season OPS is worse than
any of his regular season OPS's since his first full season in '92. So
.... I would disagree with his "clutch" assessment and actually say that
he is "unclutch". Of course, I don't have his close and late or RISP
numbers, but they can't be too good given his overall numbers.

--
UsualNoise