Truebs 2012-04-10 19:14:07
Mike and Mike suggested this article this am on ESPN radio by Tom Boswell
and it has some really good points:
NHL On Path For Major Collapse
By Thomas Boswell
Thursday, June 3, 2004; Page D01
The NHL is not just in danger of a long labor lockout or a lost season.
Professional hockey, though it seems oblivious to its mortal risk, may be on
the brink of losing its place as a major team sport.
Last week, after a 2 1/2-hour meeting with the head of the NHL Players
Association, Commissioner Gary Bettman was asked if the NHL would open
training camp for next season without a new labor agreement. “We cannot live
under the collective bargaining agreement for any longer than its term,”
That’s not an announcement of a lockout by NHL owners for next season. But
it’s about as close as you can get.
“While there was candid discussion, it would be misleading to suggest that
there was any progress made or to characterize our discussions as
productive,” said Ted Saskin, the union’s senior director. No more talks are
At about the same time, washingtonpost.com, the Post’s Web site, ran an
online poll asking which teams would be in the Stanley Cup finals. The
largest response — 42 percent of users — was: “Didn’t realize the NHL
playoffs were going on.” The NHL just doesn’t get it. Both the owners and
players are living in a parallel universe of complete delusion. Because they
love hockey, they think everybody cares about it. Because they can’t imagine
a world without the NHL, they don’t realize the majority of sports fans care
little whether the NHL even exists.
If you doubt it, check the TV ratings for the Finals From Nielsen H***
between the Calgary Flames and Tampa Bay Lightning. If the Weather Channel
had a power outage, its ratings would still crush the NHL’s numbers.
In almost every respect, the fight between the NHL’s owners and players
mirrors the battle in baseball that led to the strike of 1994 and the
cancellation of the World Series. The financial issues, long-standing
personal animosity and hard-line rhetoric could hardly be more similar.
However, there is one huge difference.
Baseball is America’s national pastime. Hockey is Canada’s national pastime.
Yet the NHL is counting on American fans and American dollars to come back
to the NHL the way they came back to baseball. What business would take such
a bet-the-industry risk? What union would tempt such career suicide for its
No one should doubt the seriousness of both sides, certainly not the owners
who are already firing team employees or not replacing those who quit. Teams
including Washington, Carolina, Dallas, Florida, Edmonton, St. Louis,
Anaheim and Phoenix have laid off or plan to lay off a substantial number of
employees. At last count, the Caps had fired four people in hockey
operations, while seven people in other departments had quit.
After a lockout and a lost season, which is currently considered the highest
probability outcome, there would certainly still be an NHL in some form. But
what form would that be? How many teams would it contain? What would its
attendance be? Just because baseball is in excellent health after a
fundamental breach of trust with its customers, that should not serve as
some sort of subliminal message to hockey’s owners and players.
Here’s the kicker, the wild card, the enormous factor the NHL seems not to
have considered. The imminent danger for hockey is that if it does anything
as destructive as baseball did in ’94-’95, the NHL may lose its status
alongside the NFL, MLB and NBA as a major professional team sport.
“Major” is a vague but invaluable distinction conferred in the public mind.
Some sports, some events, are major. Some aren’t. There’s no election, no
referendum. Nobody calls to tell you on the day you move from one category
to the other. But, over time, it happens. And for years hockey has been
slipping back toward “minor.” In its most recent TV contract, the NHL
accepted terms that were comparable to the Arena Football League.
Once a major sport falls back into the pack of wannabes, it never recovers.
Once, prize fighting and horse racing were huge national sports, far bigger
than hockey has ever dreamed of being. Does hockey understand that if it
shrinks in popularity as much as boxing and horse racing that it will not
just be small, it will almost be invisible? Can you say, bowling? Actually,
that would be an insult to bowling with its large participant base.
Hockey’s owners think they can freeze the sport for a year to save money,
then thaw it out in a wonderful new world with a hard salary cap, a docile
union and a fan base that will gradually forgive everybody. Hockey players
apparently think it’s smart to call this bluff. Perhaps only those in an
insular culture like hockey could believe this.
The awful TV ratings for the Stanley Cup may, in a bizarre way, serve as a
wake-up call. Before the finals, the NHL’s ratings were one-fourth that of
the NBA. Now, the Lightning and Flames, two small-market teams, are further
shrinking those figures. Games 1 and 2 tied for the lowest Cup ratings on
cable since 1990. Games 3 and 4 were two of the lowest for hockey since
broadcast network numbers began.
Aside from dedicated hockey fans, how many know the Flames’ best player, and
perhaps the best player in the whole sport, is Jarome Iginla?
And how many realize he’s the first black captain of an NHL club? The NHL
has many nice stories like this that are worth sharing with a wider world.
But, after a lockout, how many will still care?
Pro hockey better realize what many of us understand intuitively.
Most people can do without the NHL. The sport survives off the adoration of
a relatively small hard core. After a lost season, plenty of fans might
express a preference for a less cluttered sports scene in which the NHL came
back as a much less visible game.
Sometimes a slap in the face is useful. The NHL needs to understand that, if
it goes away for a year, the sports public — which has so many games,
seasons and athletes — may discover it prefers a world with far fewer pro
hockey highlights on TV or NHL stories in newspapers and magazines.
With a year to think about it, we might ask whether we really needed to know
so much more about the NHL than we do about women’s golf or college lacrosse
or pro soccer or NASCAR or who knows what?
Why, we might ask, is the NHL covered like a major sport? What’s so
important about it? If few missed it when it was gone, why treat it as a
major sport when it comes back?
So, NHL, do you feel lucky? Go on, take a season off.
Make our day.
Rod gramlich 2012-04-10 19:14:09
we know it (or more poignantly perhaps, as the NHL players know it) is DEAD
!! The fact is (as ironic as it may seem) that greedy (or maybe,
egotistical, better describes) owners have created their own mess. They have
spoiled their underachieving employees, and now the employees somehow see
themselves as the bludgeoned bourgeoisie ……. who have it in their heads
that “they, above all, are worth it”.
Turn out the lights …… this party is over !
Owl 2012-04-10 19:14:11
Why would you post this as a ‘good article’? It’s a going away
present from a network that lost interest in the product. They
butchered the presentation, and now it’s the tool’s fault.
How can they lose a position the rest of the article claims they never
had in the first place? Read it for yourself – we couldn’t make it
work, so it sucks.
Someone used crazy glue on this one. Bettman’s quote doesn’t tie back
to the question. And the question isn’t in quotes.
It’s also not news. That’s been on the table since Bettman’s
responses around the turn of the year.
That’s incorrect. It was discussed on Hotstove – the next meeting is
planned to start after the final game.
Again, so what? Washington’s been out of the mix for six months,
melted down, and … has other things to talk about. Leonides already
stated he was headed into rebuilding. Ever been around that kind of
environment? Between the blame, the lame, and the insane … turnover rates go up.
Back to ‘sour grapes’. ESPN couldn’t get it to work, soooo ….
They didn’t do any homework on that one. Total numbers are way up –
HNIC is a happy puppy. If ESPN can’t do their homework, maybe they
should do like they did in high school, and pay someone to do it for them.
In some ways. Saying this is that, is untrue.
That’s not a difference, that’s a statement. And strike or no strike,
that’s not going to change.
What comeback? First they say there’s nothing there, and then they
pull the nudge-nudge about the non-crowd non-coming non-back.
Again the example of melted-down Washington. How about Florida adding
a new coach and a new GM at a time when there may be less than a little to do?
Would visors be mandatory?
Baseball went through years of blizzard after the strike. Some
franchises never really recovered.
The article just spent its time explaining it wasn’t … and now it
says it could lose it.
And ESPN got that whole snowball rolling last season when it announced
cutbacks in it’s presentation schedule. The problem here isn’t hockey
– it’s ESPN diverting attention from just how badly it presented the product.
First they noted baseball’s recovery, and then they said things don’t recover.
If there’s a concern with shrinkage, ESPN should go look in the mirror.
I’ve never seen any franchise statement anywhere that states what this
article does. This is beyond fiction – it’s fertilizer.
Incorrect again – the old Goebbels angle – “If you’re gonna tell a
lie, tell a big one … a really big one. Keep telling it. Even tho
people know it’s a lie, they’ll figure there must be some truth in
Lower US ratings? U bet. Just like the mini-me World Series a few
years ago. Guess what? It goes with the territory in any sport.
This is just friggin’ horrid, vile, and worthy of contempt.
After this article, I’ll be checkin’ to see if that sports feed has
the ESPN logo on it.
Here’s the deal out of this article. Get Ted Darling and HNIC to
package the presentation technology. Export it and set it up to run
locally. ESPN can go do whatever it is they think they do best, like
…. bowling. Not real bowling, 10-pin bowling.
Rod gramlich 2012-04-10 19:14:13
It’s more than just a network losing interest in the said product !!!
Mombu 2012-04-10 19:14:15
Does Dirk Graham know about the above?
Bombelly 2012-04-10 19:14:17
Kurt sims 2012-04-10 19:14:19
I don't think it would be that bad for the NHL to have a "major collapse". Hockey has been a fantastic game for well over 100 years with or without the broad American audience. IMO hockey has deteriorated since they expanded last, I don't know whether it's because of a dilution of talent or just too many teams to keep interest. We should dump any team in a region that can't be bothered to support them and use their players to restart the Winnipeg Jets and Quebec Nordiques. Instead of begging the American networks to carry the games they should play them in the local markets and people can pick them up on NHL Center Ice packages or Pay Per View. The local station team coverage is fantastic. ESPN/ABC downright sucks when it comes to coverage, partly because they don't know the teams they cover. If you want good coverage for local teams you don't have to go far. NESN covers the Bruins with people that know the team and the players inside out. YES covers the Rangers and Islanders almost as well. I still remember Ed Whalen and the Flames on 7, it was homer coverage but you couldn't argue with the passion. Kurt (snip) To reply by email remove the two copies of spam in my return address
Owl 2012-04-10 19:14:22
A major strike is going to be a major setback. Hockey is in the singular position of driving the majority of its revenue off turnstiles. In the what-if scenario of a year-long strike, there will probably be a recovery season to follow it. Both those are part of the recipe. Add to it the growing frequency of major injuries tied to spiraling contracts. Throw in the 'era of good goal-tending'. Add to it older players sticking around cuz the money is irresistable. Do your own check on how often you recognize the names and faces, and how often the best-known players aren't in the lineup. If there's any attrition at all let it be for business reasons, and if that's the case, let the League contractt. ( I really wonder if there's a future for hockey in Pittsburgh). But skip the movement of franchises to locations that didn't work before - some of the best reasons are in your post - swarms of names you don't recognize. And don't force the downsizing - the League could end up burying itself in buyout costs. Excellent suggestion. Get the guys who are stakeholders to step in and show their product. If you want something shared league-wide, share the technology and technique to put on a good game. I had less of a problem with their knowledge (and I found some of the unusual terminology worth a chuckle or two), but the visual was a nightmare. Washed out, dysfunctional, and either long stretches of just plain boring top-views or jumping around the camera selections like a one-armed bandit readout. CBC does a 5-star job. It's almost 50 years of working at it. They should get a contract to do the skills transfer to kinds of outlets you've suggested.
Martin p. 2012-04-10 19:14:24
Isn`t that why he came up with "cablinasian"?
Bombelly 2012-04-10 19:14:26
Yes. It's had a bit of difficulty catching on though. 🙂 Jim
Lemieux 2012-04-10 19:14:28
"foamy" Iginla surely doesn't look "white". Anyway, Iggy was never offended whenever he is being labelled "black".
Buff 2012-04-10 19:14:31
If you take a look at foamy's posts in the Vancouver NG, you'll notice that he bashes Iginla every single chance he gets, even if he doesn't have the chance, he still bashes him. He claims that Iginla doesn't have any class. He says that Iginla isn't a decent captain. He says... well the list goes on and on.
Lemieux 2012-04-10 19:14:33
"Buff" Sounds like someone here who's name started with a "S". Sheesh. 😉
Buff 2012-04-10 19:14:35
Sinfire is extremely tame compared to foamy and some of the other vancouver NG posters.
Bombelly 2012-04-10 19:14:36
No, Buffy-Poo, the list doesn't go on and on, or you would have mentioned it. I think Igilna is a no-class trash-talking punk, that's it. Is he a good hockey player, absolutely. [ although to call him the best in the game is a joke ]. Is he a player, like some of the great captains past or present, you would want your child to emulate ? Not in my world Buff. Jim
Steven fisher 2012-04-10 19:14:39
The world would be a much better place if we all took "it goes without saying" to mean "if I didn't say this, nobody else would because it's invalid" and "the list goes on and on" to mean "I ran out of facts, but I'll just pretend there's more." -- Steven Fisher; firstname.lastname@example.org "Morituri Nolumus Mori."
Gary l. dare 2012-04-10 19:14:41
MSNBC is a joint venture of Microsoft and NBC. NBC will be taking on the new US broadcast contract for the NHL (the arena football-style deal, that is). The NHL's US national cable contract remains with Disney, 40 ESPN2 games and about 20 playoff games on ESPN/ ESPN2, for $60 Million. Disney is also parent of ABC. Tom Boswell is a writer for the Washington Post newspaper. So where/who is the "former network" flipping the bird? The closest was the president of Fox Network Sports, who seem to relish his public rejection of Gary Bettman when he called about their interest in getting back the NHL. I could hear Tom Arnold on "Best D***" crying, "Ya ran off with the blonde bimbo from California and have the nerve to come back? Yer outta here!" (-; gld
Gary l. dare 2012-04-10 19:14:44
The Hurricanes' parent company took out a second mortgage on their operating contract for RBC Center ... http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/1298098p-7419997c.html
Gary l. dare 2012-04-10 19:14:47
Talk about an unscientific survey. Anybody with a sense of humor would
have answered it that way. (I did! (-;) But seriously, a lot of ABC
managers are probably furious tonight after Game 5 took out their local
news in the Eastern and Central time zones – the station’s biggest money-
maker. Regular viewers went to the NBC or CBS station at 11 o’clock
(10 central). Here in Portland, Oregon, KATU got hurt bad on Saturday
when it lost a two hour news block (1 hour local, 30 min ABC national,
30 min local) from 5-7 PM and even finished fifth behind syndications,
“Stargate SG-1” on FOX and “Mutant X” on WB in the 5-6 slot!! The
media columnist of the Portland Tribune suggested that KATU buy
time on the local UPN outlet for Game 6 to save its normal Saturday
news revenue (minus the payment to the station owner, which also
owns the FOX outlet).
Mombu 2012-04-10 19:14:49
Hey, I have no problems at all in encouraging my two boys to emulate
Iginla’s humility, determination, skill and his soft spoken, well
versed speaking abilities. Sure, Iggy is no saint, but then again,
there are very few Mother Theresa’s in this world. Iggy is a gentleman
when off ice and, when on the ice, he is a true warrior. There is
absolutely nothing wrong with that.
Brett todd 2012-04-10 19:14:51
Butchered the presentation? It’s got nothing to do with presentation. Unless
that presentation involves giving people cash to watch the games, Americans
just aren’t interested in the NHL. It doesn’t matter how you package it. But
for thr record, ESPN has tried very, very hard to sell the NHL in the US.
Saying that they butchered it is simply insane. No, it’s not as “good” as
the CBC. But it’s intended for a completely different audience.
You really think this is a conspiracy? ABC didn’t give a f*** about the NHL,
owl. They let it go. There aren’t any sour grapes here. They didn’t want the
NHL back in any way, shape, or form, or they’d have outbid NBC. H***, NBC
got the NHL for nothing. That shows you right there how much interest was shown by ABC.
So what? Canada isn’t the focus of the article. The writer concedes right
off the bat that hockey in Canada’s national sport.
Uh, yes it did. Baseball recovered in 1998 with the homerun record chase.
It’s been back on solid footing ever since. The only club that didn’t
recover from 1994 was Montreal, and that decline was already well in
progress by the time the strike killed the World Series. You could mention
Milwaukee as well, although like Montreal, this is a franchise that’s been
in decline for a good 15 years.
Baseball never got anywhere close to becoming a wannabe. The writer talks
about boxing and horse racing, owl–did you not get that?
Are you out of your mind? Baseball never, ever, ever got into nearly the
same area as hockey in regard to ratings. The worst World Series ratings on
record would have to be at least a dozen times better than the best Stanley Cup ratings.
Er, why? I’ll admit that it’s stupid, the same old US human interest sports
c***, but how is it vile? There is something neat about Iginla’s background,
as it’s not the sort of thing people think of when they think about hockey.
Why not make some PR gains from that? Who is it hurting?
You’re insane. You really think that it matter how ESPN packages and sells
hockey? What reason is there to think this? ESPN tried broadcasting lots of
games over the past five or so years. It didn’t work. That’s why the
schedule was reduced this year, finally. You should be thanking ESPN for
trying to raise the NHL’s profile for so long despite depressing results,
year after year.
ESPN tried, it failed, and if the NHL goes out this fall the league won’t
come back in anything like its current form. I don’t know how you can even
deny this. Even if all the current teams survive–which seems very
doubtful–the TV contract plus declining attendance indicates that the
league will continue to fade in the US. How can it not? Fewer games on the
tube and fewer people in the stands–how can you argue with what this means?
Mario r 2012-04-10 19:14:53
.. I think Igilna is a no-class trash-talking punk, that’s
Is he a good hockey player, absolutely. [ although to call him
Not a joke at all. His intensity, determination and consistent focus make
him the most dominant hockey player in the world right now. Even Tampa fans
are describing his play as just “sick”. Iggy has willed his team on at
critical times. Compare Iggy’s resolve with anybody from Tampa last night
other than say St Louis and you know why Calgary won.
Is he a player, like some of the
How many current sports athletes would you want your child to emulate?
If Iggy is guilty of anything it is being unabashedly enthusiastic and
willing to do anything in his desire to win. I don’t particularly like his
whining, tantrumming either but I realize fully that Gretz did it too. While
it may look classless IMO its just indicative of the will to win. Very few
players have won with the class of a Beauliveau.
The leaders in our world just aren’t what they used to be and not just in
sports as I think we’ve discussed before. Orr to Iggy(no offence) is more a
sign of where our society in general has gone and I think you’ll agree. You
might just be pining nostalgic for better times.
Mario r 2012-04-10 19:14:55
Agreed, bludgeoned bourgeosie! LMARO!!!
On a serious note in a day and age where CEO’s think their worth millions,
the almighty $ is the holy grail, and so many are willing to do anything to
get it the NHLPA just represents a symptom of a much larger sign of the
Joe mildenberg 2012-04-10 19:14:57
How do you define “greed”? I thought that the prime motivation of everybody
as participants in a free-enterprise, capitalistic system was to maximize
their earnings. How come if I market the “Pocket Fisherman” and make millions
I’m an upstanding entrepeneur, but if I become one of the best athletes in the
world and make millions playing hockey I’m a greedy p****?
Mario r 2012-04-10 19:14:59
Some of us don’t vote unrestrained capitalism Joe. One of the problems I see
in our world is a wildly out of control distribution of wealth where the
rich have it all and the middle class is disappearing and the poor don’t
even exist. All the union bashing, employment standards trashing, has us
back in a pre-depression era state where the average guy is just hanging on
while the world is financially controlled by a few interests.
I define greed as unchecked, even wantom, desire for more and at any cost.
How much is enough? I’ve always considered that renumeration provides for
motivation but what amount of differential pay is necessary to provide for
such motivation.? The $ appears to have become its own religion and
certainly dominates our political sphere..
The pocket fisherman guy should make money sure but should also pay
proportional taxes not to mention paying the workers properly or even having
a plant locally to employ the workers of an area buying the product. Todays
example of market domination by the kingdoms of Coke and Walmart and their
ilk are not at all examples of capitalism or free enterprise anyway.
As for hockey players why is it odd for me to describe them as greedy when
their pay has risen a hundred fold in but one lifetime? That in one
generation players who relished going to a pro game as a child have all but
priced out the average child from now attending with their financially
average family. Are hockey players somehow more valuable now? Worth more to
society? One can’t even legitimately claim that they are worth this much due
to market dictates as the perception of market for the product is widely
distorted as this thread attests to.
Chris_selley 2012-04-10 19:15:01
You think it will actually negatively affect the product on the ice? I
don’t see how, and if it doesn’t, I couldn’t care less what happens to
the NHL — the NHL, mind you, not “hockey”. It’s not like all these
guys are going to pack it in and go to law school. The “new NHL,”
whatever it looks like, is still going to offer your average Swedish
fisherman’s/Albertan wheat farmer’s kid about 10,000 times more dough
than he could ever hope to make otherwise, and the teams that are
around will always have their eyes on the prize. And one of those
teams will forever and always be the Toronto Maple Leafs.
Supply-and-demand economics and the freakin’ rule book — as written
— is all this league needs. If the folks in Miami don’t like it, TS,
move on, and thank f*** they never got their names on the Cup.
Joe mildenberg 2012-04-10 19:15:03
This was really a rhetorical question; I happen to agree with
just about everything you said. (May I call you “Comrade Mario”?)
Bombelly 2012-04-10 19:15:05
Because he trash talks and acts like a punk.
Ya, out of the two teams. One great playoff, following a nothing special
season, or career for that matter, doesn’t make a guy the best player in
the league. Might as well say Gelinas is the best winger in the game.
Good thinking. 🙂 But there are lots of classy guys still, especially in
hockey. I don’t think trash talkers should be excused by attributing to
them some great will to win. Guys like Sakic or Stevie Y are driven
by the will to win every bit as much as Iginla, but they don’t find the
need to make an a** out of themselves. Trash talking in the public
manner as Iginla does, is designed to bring attention to himself, nothing
more than a ‘ Hey ! Look at me ‘.
Mario r 2012-04-10 19:15:08
heh, I meant why do you percieve him this way? (FTR I expect no different
answer from you here ;^)
No, out of all the teams he’s faced in the playoffs he’s been the best
player on the ice.
One great playoff, following a nothing special
Context is essential in understanding Iginla’s greatness. Everything he has
accomplished has been on a team that is comparitively lacking. This has been
an epic accomplishment almost without parallel. When his name gets etched on
the Conn Smythe it won’t look at all out of place. H*** he exemplifies what
the trophies about. The last few seasons Iginla has been among, if not the
best IMO. Remember I’m an Oil fan sucking it up and saying this, or maybe
just sucking up ;-P. But I have been saying it since his performance in the
doesn’t make a guy the best player in
Agreed, good examples… course you picked some of my faves so I can’t
disagree even if I wanted…..
Trash talking in the public
Yet here he is the absolute respected leader on a lunchbucket, hard working
team. I see very little, nor would his teammates that suggests that he’s
saying “its all about me” For whatever reason you percieve him that way but
that persona would never be allowed in the Flames dressing room at least
during Sutters watch anyhoo.
Lars 2012-04-10 19:15:10
Winning the Art Ross, Rocket Richard twice, and Lester B. Pearson awards is
“nothing special”? LOL.
He’s better than any player who’s ever played for the Canucks, anyway.
Chris wright 2012-04-10 19:15:12
Perhaps you are saying, he’s like a flower than grew out of a pot of dirt?
I think of Iginla is a King of Barbarians, a Genghis Khan without wit or
intellect, and no decency for that matter.
Mario r 2012-04-10 19:15:14
Fans of the sports world unite!!!!!
heh, I didn’t read it as rhetorical at all. Was the rant unnecessary? I’m
always going off about something. Its been my usenet mission to start a fan
revolution against the bourgeois NHL since I can’t afford tickets to a team
that can’t afford players. Then again I alternately feel sorry for season
ticketholders in Edmonton and wouldn’t go to some games even for free..
Bombelly 2012-04-10 19:15:16
Mario r 2012-04-10 19:15:18
no, flowers tend to do that. Its more like gold sprouting up out of the pot of dirt Kind of what the vanquished usually felt about the mongol hordes.....perspective is everything and you are a nucks fan.
Mario r 2012-04-10 19:15:20
heh those finnish names can make your keyboard stick! I really didn't like it either, saw it much like you did, asked W** is Iginla argueing about? and then remembered that in the stuntmanship of current sports thats just how everybody milks sympathy from the refs who strangely fall for it allowing it to be reinforced as the established approach practiced by coaches, gms, captains, players, around the league. I Felt sorry for Primeau who didn't win because he is surrounded by Primadonnas like Roenick who didn't share the desire. How is Primeau not on team Canada? Even Primeau does not match Iggys desire and domination however. Agreed, But iggy has put together quite the piece of work in recent years. If this was any other year but the CBA, Leonsis de-denial, NYR firesale, year Iggy would be worth gold on the market. Who doubts he would've been the most sought after player warranting unprecedented bidding in any other year?
Chris wright 2012-04-10 19:15:22
Riiiight... I cheer for many teams, just as loudly as I cheer for the Canucks.
Rod gramlich 2012-04-10 19:15:25
But the issue is, "who's the entrepreneur here" ??? As much as I hate to say it, "it's the owners". The player's lay out nothing .......... they just show up with their (golden) lunch buckets. If the entrepreneurs, in this case, claim that the fishing booklet is costing more to produce than it's bringing in on the "free market", then it's either time to forget about the book, change how you 'produce the book', or start hoping that the non_fishing types take up fishing and start buying the book.
Mario r 2012-04-10 19:15:28
I just couldn't resist..... FWIW I don't esthetically like this brand of hockey any more than you do but I am resigned that it is winning and that NHL hockey has devolved into rugby on ice. Calgary wins because their collective desire outmatches opposition skill. If any other team were able to come close to matching their desire we wouldn't be talking about this right now. Note how Lecavalier for instance has checked himself out of the series and is now terrified at the thought of possessing the puck and seems more concerned with looking behind his back. I have watched this Calgary team vanquish the desire of every team they have faced on the road in the game 5's and have come to the conclusion that the average NHLPA membership and its teams simply don't care enough, to show up enough, to actually beat this team. It is unfathomable watching Tampa, a team that may never get another chance s******* the bed on home ice in a game where they clearly lost cuz they were not willing to match Calgarys work ethic.
Rod gramlich 2012-04-10 19:15:30
"THIS brand" of hockey people keep referring to IS HOCKEY !!! Yes, there ain't no Wayne Gretzkys or Paul Coffeys ................ but there is some serious banging and crashing, and boys playing with some intent to hurt to win. I'd take this ANY day over a f****** New Jersey / Minny, trap till you puke type hockey. Remember Colorado this year ..... all the "big guns" ....... playing kitty_bar_the_door hockey and not hitting anyone. H***, give me Tampa / Calgary any day. And from an Oiler's ng regular, .............. "GO FLAMES, GO"
Joe mildenberg 2012-04-10 19:15:32
What on earth does that have to do with anything? They have something to sell (their hockey skills) and there are willing buyers (the owners, directly, and the fans, indirectly). Nobody is holding a gun to anyone's head. Absolutely: if the demand for their services dries up, they may have to take a pay cut. You still haven't explained why hockey players trying to maximize their profitability are "greedy" while businessmen trying to do exactly the same thing aren't. Joe ..
Mario r 2012-04-13 22:09:16
Well I don't disagree its nice to see an NHL team play like they actually care for once. Its the kitty by the door c***, not hitting anything, trying to sneak a cheap goal instead of working it that led to Calgarys success. Most millionaires get to the point where they don't feel like working as hard anymore which explains everything thats happening in the NHL lately. I like the hitting too but I don't think its being MUTUALLY contested as much as you. Tampa was tentative most of the game and so was everybody else Calgary faced after experiencing their intensity. NO team has really competed very well with Calgary after game 4. This tells me a lot about the desire of the opponents half of whom are probably kicking and sipping their pina coladas by the beach somewhere. Not that I'm trying to detract from what the flames have accomplished- A LOT but I'd like to see more games like how San Jose tried to play Calgary early in that series till they also lost hope. And from an Oiler's ng regular, .............. "GO FLAMES, GO" WHAT HE SAID!!!
Rod gramlich 2012-04-13 22:09:18
uh …………. the reason that there may be a work stoppage is that
there is NOT quite so many willing buyers as the players might think there is.
I call bullshit. It don’t matter which way around you look at this picture, someone is pointing.
That’s the debate. IF the entrepreneurs are losing money (largely because
their 18,000 seat venues are only holding 6,000 a**** a night), then it
tells us that the drought has arrived.
they may have to take a
I’m not so sure who issued the first ‘greed’ claim in this thread, but the
bottom line is greed is the precursor (h***, it’s the cursor) to the deck of
cards tumbling. No matter whether it be owners or players, greed will be the demise.
Rod gramlich 2012-04-13 22:09:20
And from an Oiler’s ng regular, ………….. “GO FLAMES, GO”
WHAT HE SAID!!!
listen … I ain’t apologizing to nobody bout’ nuttin’ !! 🙂 I claimed way back in January my spot on that thar Flame bandwagon (and I warned all them die_hard Oiler loyals to do the same ……. but no, they kept praying for a trade and a playoff spot LOLOLOLOL) !!!!!!!!!!!! The Flames are my second favorite team on most nights ………. but keep KL and CM around here (Edmonton) much longer and that 2004 Stanley Cup champ will be my favorite team on EVERY night ROTFLMFARO !!!!
F****** bruins 2012-04-13 22:09:23
Like you said Brett it isn’t the coverage that is a problem.
Americans just aren’t hockey fans in most states.Personally I don’t
find the ABC/ESPN coverage to be that bad. They are mostly Canadian
(including John Saunders the host) so they all know the game. Sure
they ‘dumb it down’ somewhat for people that are new to the game but
it’s a much better presentation than the Fox network puked up in the
mid 90’s with the glowing puck and the robots!!!
Is harry Neale and Bob Cole better than Gary Thorne, John Davidson and
Bill Clement?? Not by much. Harry is absolutely terrible and Bob Cole
should have been replaced by Chris Cuthbert 5 years ago. Don Cherry?
he’s just a complete embarrassment every time he opens his mouth! And
I’m a Bruins fan!!!
I don’t think us Canadians give the ABC coverage a chance at all.
It’s our sport and we don’t feel that an american network can compete.
But when it is mostly Canadians speaking on that network how can it be
as bad as some people think? As far as i see it, it is simply our
pathetic insecurity rearing it’s ugly head.
Canadians like to blame Americans (specifically Bettman) for what they
don’t like about the league. Bettman is nothing more than a mouth
piece for the owners, so every team owner deserves credit or blame for
what’s good or bad in the league.
Chris wright 2012-04-13 22:09:26
On the contrary, I think that the very reason that opposition teams lose
desire is because they get so utterly disgusted with the Flames’ brutal
tactics that they lose a significant amount of their drive to win. This was
most evident in the last game the Flames played against Detroit. The vets on
Detroit could see exactly what was going on, and that the refs were letting
the Flames win through brutality. Skilled players don’t much care to compete
hard in a league where brutal tactics are validated by refs, owners,
commissioners, presidents, coaches, and fans alike.
Your sense of resignation is exactly what’s *not* needed to correct the
problem, I would point out. There’s three classes of hockey fans as far as
1. Likes brutal hockey, thinks it’s perfectly ok for brutal tactics to
prevail over skill tactics (e.g. most, if not all, Flames fans)
2. Doesn’t like brutal hockey, but is willing to tolerate it, because they
don’t see any alternative
3. Doesn’t like brutal hockey, and doesn’t tolerate people in group 1 or 2
trying to justify it.
The more people in class 3, the faster improvement will come (if indeed it
Owl 2012-04-13 22:09:29
On 4 Jun 2004 11:56:36 -0700, email@example.com
Not really sure where you rambler drove you on this one, but:
Sure, a year-long strikeout will have a major, negative, impact on the
whole structure. It’d be hard to see any aspect of what we recognize
as the NHL not taking a major hit. Go with the talent pool, the
pipeline, the guys who leave and don’t come back
(retirement/Europe/another career) and other guys who don’t make it
back in after they’re shut out (replaced for cost, conditioning, age,
even spite). Young guns that would have come up are going to be
staying in the AHL; and guys that would have got to the AHL, won’t.
Good way to put it – the ‘new NHL’. Most, but maybe not all, the
franchise names will look the same. But it’ll be rusty, and reglued
together with different, unpredictable, rosters. The fans will be
crusty, the media will be harsh, and the big-money powerhouses …
won’t have the big-market names and pricetags.
Your estimates of the price-swings between here and there are off, and
it’s not a trivial issue. Guys have already started making the move
to play there instead of here, and the monetary downside isn’t what it
used to by (Yushkevich, Tverdovsky for example left, Steen chose to
stay there for now, Markov was quite ready to go). Coupled with the
IIHF expiry, Ovetchkin may not get out at all.
Apoligies if I’ve misinterpreted your response, but it seems to say
‘f*** em’. I’ve talked to people who have expressed that kind of
response. My experience is that those words and shrugs turn to anger
and volume once a strikeout starts, and doesn’t wear off quickly or
easily. If you’re looking for a barometer, save a copy of the ESPN
‘who cares, it’s s***** and unpopular’ … and compare it to what they
write in November.
Dos boot 2012-04-13 22:09:31
On Fri, 04 Jun 2004 11:05:11 -0700, Joe Mildenberger
If you priced your ‘pocket fisherman’ much too high thinking that
because the product was so good that any idiot on the street would pay
anything to get their hands on it (so to speak),
and if you spread your market way too thin and expanded the business
rapidly into places where people weren’t ready for some old time
and if you didn’t realize all the while that your desire to get rich
was actually driving your business into the ground then you might
begin to understand the dilemma that the NHL and the NHLPA are in.
It’s not just about making money, it’s about growing and tending to a
business in a sensible way, and actually caring what your customers
think and want. The NHL has done none of this over the last decade
and that’s the reason they are about to lose everything.
Mario r 2012-04-13 22:09:34
And from an Oiler’s ng regular, ………….. “GO FLAMES, GO”
WHAT HE SAID!!!
listen … I ain’t apologizing to nobody bout’ nuttin’ !! 🙂 I claimed way back in January my spot on that thar Flame bandwagon (and I warned all them die_hard Oiler loyals to do the same ……. but no, they kept praying for a trade and a playoff spot LOLOLOLOL) !!!!!!!!!!!! The Flames are my second favorite team on most nights ………. but keep KL and CM around here (Edmonton) much longer and that 2004 Stanley Cup champ will be my favorite team on EVERY night ROTFLMFARO !!!!
I’m not sure if you follow that I’m agreeing. Maybe your memory is getting bad but I’ve been critical of the Oil for sometime as you’d know and singing the praises of the flames for along while on different ngs. “What he said” was a form of “DITTO”, not any shock or disagreement about what you said which should probably be clear enough to you. Enough with the crazy fonts and colors already Red …er.. Rod….;^)
Rods news 2012-04-13 22:09:36
PUHLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZZ !!!! Go burb the granola and check the church schedule.
This is NOT brutal hockey …………………… this is REAL hockey !!
Watch Gary ROberts, Brian McCabe,Tie dummy and Darcy Schmucker for a night
and you’ll get a real feel for brutality.
Skilled players don’t much care to compete
To be a complete player (skill included) means one must learn how to
two_step when the ballerina wears work_boots.
You don’t by chance have season’s tickets at the Pepsi Center, do you ??
Careful not to confuse brutal hockey with hard hitting hockey (just a
reminder … it’s a contact sport).
Again ….. depends on the def’n. of brutal hockey. The Flames are eons from
a brutal hockey team … no matter Dave Hodge says.
This has been one of the best play-offs in recent memory. WHY ??? Because
there has been some solid hockey played by several teams. What do you think
Brendan Shanahan would say about losing to the Flames ?? He’d say, “we got
beat by a team who outworked us and out hit us” ……. that’s what Shannie
would say. So would Patrick Marleau (who gives a s*** what Vinnie dumbfoos
would say). And what do you think Vinnie Lecav would say ?? Probably exactly
the same thing … even though he was on the wrong end of a hit.
What we are witnessing right now IS an improvement to hockey, as it has
evolved to, present day.
Rods news 2012-04-13 22:09:39
sorry you’re not a flames fan.
I’d agree. But that’s the nature of the beast. H***, if it weren’t for CBA
negs upcoming, we’d be hearing about iggy and sutter being headed to the big apple for big $.
Rods news 2012-04-13 22:09:42
ROTFLMARO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And bingo !!!
And one of those
Now here’s my kind of fellow ng’er and hockey critic !!!!! LOLOLOL !!
Couldn’t have said it better myself.
The former is a BIG part of it …………. not to mention the big a**
guaranteed salaries. Most of these schmucks don’t care if they win or lose.
Now Darryl Sutter, on the other hand ………
Buff 2012-04-13 22:09:47
Iginla is so classless, that after he won the goal and point scoring
race two years ago he bought all of his teammates personal engraved
watches, thanking them for their help on his season. If he is as
classless as foamy says, he would’ve demanded a trade to a team with
talent, like Colorado or Detroit. Nope, he attributed his great season
to his teammates.
Buff 2012-04-13 22:09:51
Just pay attention to him in post game interviews. Not that it’ll change
your narrow little mind.
Buff 2012-04-13 22:09:54
Thanks Rod, I really commend you for showing your support for the
Flames. If the shoes were on the other feet I don’t think I could back
the Oilers. Heck I cheered for the Stars in the previous 7 playoffs
because they played the Oilers.
Bombelly 2012-04-13 22:09:56
Unfortunately that’s probably true. Maybe it’s a good thing the p***
is going to hit the fan now, and after it’s over small market Canadian
teams will be able to have a little breathing room and not have to just
be development teams for the big spenders.
Gary l. dare 2012-04-13 22:09:59
The ABC broadcasts are actually time purchased (with funny money)
by ESPN. (Both are divisions of Disney.) Fox Sports, and ancestor
SportsChannel before it, cobbled together local broadcasts and crews.
Bill Clement is from the Ottawa region, so is Darren Pang (ex-Chicago
goalie). Ray Ferraro calls in from Vancouver or flies in with his work
visa in hand. John Davidson is from Alberta, Barry Melrose is from
Saskatchewan, Saunders is a Torontonian. Most of the Americans
are from America’s hockey country like John Buccigross, the host
of the late NHL 2Night (original host Bill Pidto is from San Jose
but a hockey convert from college in New England). Linda Cohn
was a high school hockey player who still plays charity games.
Oh yeah, former Hab and fellow Winnipeger Brian Engblom
part-times but we’ll not likely see him on the new US contract.
All in all, the ESPN crew is loaded with northeastern American
and Canadian hockey lovers.
Chris wright 2012-04-13 22:10:02
Marchment, Domi and Tucker practice an even worse brand of violence than
anyone on the Flames, agreed, but that does not mean that the Flames are to
be excused for their brutality, just because somewhere in the league, there’s worse.
It’s no bad thing to have the potential to hurt oppostion players; it’s
better not to exercise that potential on a nightly basis though. Yzerman can
hurt people if he chooses, but he almost never does. Remember a few years
ago, when Pronger came charging at him? Yzerman just lifted Pronger off the
ice and dropped him on his knee, putting him out of commission for the
better part of a year. But you only want to see that kinda thing happen out of self-defense.
Of course not. There’s a line to be drawn, and it has something to do with
not doing anything that is likely to injure other players. It’s pretty
obvious that running people face-first into the glass isn’t safe. Same with
cross-checking people in the spine, ten times in a row. I’ve seen many
Flames do that countless times during the playoffs, and they never get
called. It’s sickening. It may not cause obvious injury, but it definitely
hurts, and it’s that kind of cumulative damage that causes chronic injury,
and forces players to retire earlier than they otherwise might.
Because the NHL has been in the s****** for many years now!
It’s an evolution, to be sure. It’s like a lion, which mutated into a hyena.
And why did it evolve? To cope with the misguided belief that massive
expansion would be a wise choice. Thank Bettman, and thank fans who slowly
let their league slide into something horrid, but didn’t notice it happening
right in front of their eyes.
Chris wright 2012-04-13 22:10:05
I have. What do you find so admirable in him?
Gary l. dare 2012-04-13 22:10:07
My family and friends who visit me at various work sites in the States
are quite impressed by what I’ve shown them on ESPN, especially
the NHL 2Night wrap-up show that just ended (RIP). The problem
is not ESPN, it’s the US audience … hockey is very regionalized and
its fan base highly connected to the fate of their local team.
Actually, if ABC had bid $1 then it would have taken the risk of any losses.
The NBC deal ensures that NBC-Universal is paid first before the NHL gets
a penny. NBC may already have buyer’s remorse, as ABC affiliates in the
Eastern and Central time zones lost their 11 ET/10 CT half hour local news
to CBS and NBC. In the States, that’s a BIG deal.
Here on the west coast, KATU, the ABC station in Portland, gave up two
hours of Saturday news (90 minutes local, 30 minutes national) to their
CBS and NBC rivals because of hockey. Not only that, they finished
#5 in the 5-6 PM period. KATU might buy time on the UPN station
for Game #6 to save their Saturday news tomorrow.
Gary l. dare 2012-04-13 22:10:10
Thursday night’s ratings are in … during prime time, Game 5
caused ABC to finish #5 behind UPN’s wrestling show! )-;
Still, that’s better than finishing #5 behind “Mutant X” on WB
in the Portland, Oregon market last Saturday …
Lemieux 2012-04-13 22:10:12
When these greedy p**** are pricing themselves at a point where it is going to destroy their own market, they are greedy p****.
Say, why should the owners keep losing money in order to satisfy the greed from these greedy p*****?
As a matter of fact, why should anyone commits such stupid thing?
As you have mentioned it yourself.
Everyone is trying to maximize their earnings.
Sure, the greedy p***** are now maximizing their earnings and still thought they are not making enough.
Meanwhile, the also trying to maximize earnings owners have no earnings to show for except for net loss.
Sooner or later, they are going to fold such maximize losings.
Back to simple Econ 101.
Teams fold, demand goes down, supply remains unchanged, prices go down.
Who is being screwed ultimately?
That’s the reason the NHLPA is being labelled greedy p*****.
On a side note, I am never a firm believer of free-enterprise, capitalistic system.
What happens is we now have the fucktard OPEC.
Lemieux 2012-04-13 22:10:15
So, exactly what did Hatcher-the-Red-Wings do to Lombardi again?
Pick a better example.
Lemieux 2012-04-13 22:10:17
Aggressive forechecking, solid back-checking, fast skating and hard hitting is “brutal hockey”.
You really should quit watching hockey and go cheer for Mike Weir and I mean, NOW.
Let me guess, sour grapes from a Cauncks’, Wings’ or Sharks’ fan?
And use your brain before you even use the Wings as an example for your freak out logic of “brutal hockey”.
The likes of Draper and Maltpy (sp) are exactly there to do these “brutal” deed for the Wings.
Hard checking has always been a part of hockey even when I watched those classics game back in the 70s.
It is not the other team’s faults that your team was being built on an opposition direction.
Lemieux 2012-04-13 22:10:19
There is no point.
When you really hate someone, you can just pick every single s*** out there griping about it.
Haven’t we seen enough of that already from that thing with a name started with a “S”.
Mind you, and this thread was cross-posted to like a zillion groups.
Lemieux 2012-04-13 22:10:22
“Stay Down, Stay Down!”
IMO, that’s a very natural reaction from Iginla.
I would have do the same in the same situation.
One can view that as an attempt to prevent further injury or an attempt to fake it out.
I think Iginla chosen the later.
Mind you, this happens in all game in which a loser and a winner must be decided.
Stop watching and pacticipate in any “winning-driven” activities.
Lemieux 2012-04-13 22:10:25
As far as I know, you “no-class” definition to Iginla didn’t start from there.
State some other concerete examples that are longer in the past then.
Buff 2012-04-13 22:10:28
He is class. He doesn’t trash talk anybody in his interviews. He doesn’t
take the lime light, he’d rather pass it off as the teams success, not his.
Buff 2012-04-13 22:10:30
”When you really hate someone, you can just pick every single s*** out
there griping about it.”
Give him a break. If I can give Doug Norris a chance do you think you
can give Sinfire a chance?
Kim 2012-04-13 22:10:37
Kim 2012-04-13 22:10:40
I think here you kind of make Jim’s point. An opposing player goes
down because of a cheap shot and what does the captain do?
He “argues”, “milks sympathy” and engages in “stuntmanship”.
Would Sakic do that?
Chris wright 2012-04-13 22:10:45
Yeah, he’s half-way there to becoming an entirely admirable player, that
doesn’t mean that I’m going to like what he does on the ice though.
Mario r 2012-04-13 22:10:48
Definitely Trevor Linden! He’s a class act. 😉
Realto margari 2012-04-13 22:10:51
How can anybody argue that Iginla hasn’t arrived as the best in the
world right now? He logs more minutes per game than any of his
defensemen and yet he is still there at the end a force. I haven’t
seen anyone as dominant as he since Jagr’s prime. St. Louis and
Lecavalier should be taking notes.
I didn’t care about Iginla one way or the other until I have been
watching him in the playoffs. He is easily the best player in the
world right now. He has carried that team on his back.
cordially, as always,
Problem solved 2012-04-13 22:10:53
You’re right on. There are not many players that can dominate the way he
can. St. Louis and Lecavalier can be great scorers – if you have only one
dimension to your game that is a good one to have. Richards for Tampa is a
very good all around player. Compare Iginla’s numbers with Messier in his
prime, they are very close and that was a much more offensiver era, on a
team with Gretzky.
Bombelly 2012-04-13 22:10:57
Problem solved 2012-04-13 22:10:59
These are the stats for both players in their first 8 seasons: Jarome Iginla GP G A P PIM 1996-97 Calgary Flames NHL 82 21 29 50 37 1997-98 Calgary Flames NHL 70 13 19 32 29 1998-99 Calgary Flames NHL 82 28 23 51 58 1999-00 Calgary Flames NHL 77 29 34 63 26 2000-01 Calgary Flames NHL 77 31 40 71 62 2001-02 Calgary Flames NHL 82 52 44 96 77 2002-03 Calgary Flames NHL 75 35 32 67 49 2003-04 Calgary Flames NHL 81 41 32 73 84 Mark Messier GP G A P PIM 1979-80 Edmonton Oilers NHL 75 12 21 33 120 1980-81 Edmonton Oilers NHL 72 23 40 63 102 1981-82 Edmonton Oilers NHL 78 50 38 88 119 1982-83 Edmonton Oilers NHL 77 48 58 106 72 1983-84 Edmonton Oilers NHL 73 37 64 101 16 1984-85 Edmonton Oilers NHL 55 23 31 54 57 1985-86 Edmonton Oilers NHL 63 35 49 84 68 1986-87 Edmonton Oilers NHL 77 37 70 107 73
Realto margari 2012-04-13 22:11:06
Why not compare him to Lecavalier and St. Louis? They are amongst the best. Just watch him play. Sakic is over the hill, Foreskin is incapable of putting together a full season. Thornton et al, don't dominate the same way. Watch him play. He is all by himself out there and that's why he doesn't rack up any assists. Who the f*** is Bert? Bertuzzi? Are you kidding? cordially, as always, rm
Realto margari 2012-04-13 22:11:10
I said Iginla is the best in the world. Messier has never been better than 2nd or 3rd best on his own team. Messier is, along with Gordie Howe, the most overrated player in the history of team sport. cordially, as always, rm
Problem solved 2012-04-13 22:11:14
In the time period you mention, the numbers are very close and again there was more offence in general at the time. I'm not taking away anything from Messier, he is probably the best "all around" player in the modern era. What we're saying, I think, is that Iginla is the best "all around" player since Messier. I don't think you can really argue that. That seems to be a consensus not only among fans and commentators but the players in the league as well. Even players on the Lightning.
Owl 2012-04-13 22:11:19
Geez, whatever the reason you have for the downplay on Iginla is yours, but it's so far off the fairway you'd be better to drop a new ball. Jerome Iginla has more than held up his end of the deal anytime, anywhere. He's one of the best packages in the world - on and off the ice. I went at it tooth n nail with Buff two years ago, saying Calgary just couldn't afford to bite the bullet on the guy. Buff said they would. They did. He was right. Now a Calgary team that squeaked into the playoffs could be the last team standing, and smelling like a combination of roses and silver polish. He's been up front on the charge in skating, shooting, play-making, rough-housing, and visibility departments. He matches up strong numbers with other 'number-producers', he gets as rough as other 'tough-boys', he gets as visible as the best 'mouths' in the League, he interviews as well as the smoothest silver-tongues around, and he sweats leadership that most other captains would love to have a deep-dish slice of. If they win the Cup, I'd give top-nod to Kipper for technicals and above-and-beyond in expectations. I'd make Iggy the #2 selection for performance and delivering the way a big contract is supposed to - try and find a team that wouldn't trade one of their $7.5-mil men for Jerome. Sakic ... great guy, Forsberg top-notch, Thornton (whines, over-promo'd, loses his focus), Bertuzzi (big black eye on his record), Kovalchuk (benched at times for not being in the same world as the team, especially defensively), Naslund (great player), Jagr (you really should have left this attitude off the list). And to get the mix right for the time of signing, you should have added Kariya at $10mil, Bure at $10mil, Federov at $10mil, Tkachuk at $10mil, LeClair at $9mil, Modano at $9mil, Sundin at $9mil, Guerin at $8.8mil, Holik at $8.8mil, Weight at $8.5mil, Yashin at $8.4mil, Allison at $8mil, Roenick at $7.5mil and Turgeon at $7.5mil. There's a fair number of guys in there that rate as poorly spent money. Short list - Sakic, Forsberg, Naslund. With the first two, I'll take Iginla and keep the $2.5mil diff to add another good player. With Naslund, I'll spend the extra $2mil and take Iginla. Best to best - Naslund at $5.25 vs Iginla at $7.5mil.
Chris wright 2012-04-13 22:11:24
You seem to be completely shutting your eyes to the fact that Jerome could be a classy player, and still play his style of hockey, successfully, but allows himself to continually resort to dirty tactics. He does not value class, chooses not to have class. That's simply not acceptable, unless you'll willing to let the NHL devolve into something worse than it already is.
Bombelly 2012-04-13 22:11:27
Well I can't stand Messier, never could, I just was pointing out it's hyperbole to suggest Iginla has put up numbers equivalent to Messier in his prime. Oh I think I could. 🙂 I'm not sure I know what you mean by all around player, but I don't see Iginla being the best since Messier at anything. What all around stuff, or specific stuff does he do better than Sakic eg ? That seems to be a The playoffs are the time of hype, excitement and exaggeration. Did you hear anyone make claims of Iginla being the best player in the league during the season ? At any time in his career, for that matter ? He and the team are having a tremendous playoffs. Every guy on the team appears to be playing over their heads. But it will take more than one playoff to elevate Iginla to the best imo. Jim
Realto margari 2012-04-13 22:11:32
You obviously never watched Messier play. You know him only through Ranger hype. Kurri, Coffey, not to mention Gretzky, were all better than Messier with the Oilers. And it was Leetch, then at the top of the game, and Richter, that won the Cup for the Rangers. Iginla dominates on the ice, not in the newspapers. Messier was a f****** joke who happened to play a long time with a lot of players who were better than him. cordially, even to the uninformed, rm
Realto margari 2012-04-13 22:11:37
Oh, ps: P**** Messier never won a fight in his life. cordially, as always, rm
Problem solved 2012-04-13 22:11:41
Sakic, is a great player. In fact he is my "favourite" player. He can't compere with Iginla or Messier when it comes to the physical aspect of the game. Battling for the puck, checking, etc. Yes. Before the Olympics, Gretzky said he was the best player in the league. There has been constant commentary throughout the season about Iginla being perhaps the best. Marc Crawford said that he has never seen a player as dominant as Iginla. It is more than a playoff. Iginla is dominant. For a long time in Calgary it is all we had, Calgary would lose but the fans would be saying, "Did you see Iginla out there?" Many games he would completely dominate, score two goals and the Flames would lose 3-2. This has been going on for 3 or 4 years. When you hear players from other teams talk about him or players who have played in Junior with him, they knew there was something unique about him.
Problem solved 2012-04-13 22:11:51
I've seen Messier play all too much and cursed him thoroughly through most of it. To call Messir a joke makes you look stupid. I'm not a fan of Messier because not only was he a great player he was a master of spearing - just like with his swan song at the end of this season. You cannot seriously say that the player with the 2nd most points ever is a joke. Kurri, Coffey and definitely Gretzky were better at their specific jobs - bust as a player with many roles he was exceptional. Your point goes to my point, his supporting cast was far better than Iginlas and yet Iginla has similar numbers. If Iginla was playing on the Oilers from the mid 80's he would have better numbers than Messier.
Realto margari 2012-04-13 22:11:54
Devolve? _Right now_ he's the best in the league. As it is _right now_. As complete a talent has not been seen since Bryan Trottier or even Ted Lindsay. Or perhaps even Gordie Howe although Howe was never much of a leader. Iginla is what everybody hoped Lindros would become. cordially, as always, rm
Problem solved 2012-04-17 21:04:07
Obviously your dislike of Messier is at least as deep as mine but I can admit that was a good player. Messier never had to win a fight cuz if he thought you were going to drop them he would just spear you.
Problem solved 2012-04-17 21:04:15
Actually 2nd all time in playoff points - 4th in regular season.
Bombelly 2012-04-17 21:04:17
Geez, that's easy 🙂 He plays for the dirty-cheating-puck-kicking-in b******-Otto-loving Flames. Sure, I don't have a problem with that statement. , Jagr I can't stand his attitude, but included him for two reasons, no one can deny his talent, and because he put up better numbers on a shittier team. Well I didn't read any of those who were claiming he's the best player in the world, qualify their claim by saying, " Best player in the world for the dollar. " There's players on the long list I would take over Iginla, but with respect to your short list, for me it would depend upon what kind of a team I had. I can see me taking Sakic, even at this stage of his career over Jerome under certain circumstances, and I'd take a healthy Forsberg with a fire in his belly ahead of Iginla, however I'd take Iginla over Naslund under any circumstances. Even though I'm a Canuck fan, and Naslund is a class act on and off the ice and a very good player, he's never been the leader or as intense a player as I gravitate to. Jim
Realto margari 2012-04-17 21:04:19
Messier was just another Bobby Clarke. A dirty player with loads of players around to protect him. People who claim that Messier was tough don't know what they are talking about. He looks tough because of the big jaw and the the shaved head but he was never tough. His assets were speed and chippy play. He was not a complete player by any standard. He has pretty much played for the second most amount of time, hasn't he? Long past his usefulness. He never had to carry a team and he seldom led his team in scoring. He seldom even played on a team's top line and his so-called "leadership" abilities are pure hyperbole. He had speed and he was dirty. He couldn't fight. He couldn't check. And he picked up a lot of garbage points. The other team's defense was always keyed on Gretzky, et al. Messier reminds me of Bernie Nicholls who scored 150 points while playing second fiddle - and on the second line to Gretzky, although they were different types of players. Did anyone ever accuse Bernie Nicholls of being one of the best in the league? Of course. Iginla would have played on the first line. Can you name me any point in time that Messier was the best player on his team? cordially, as always, rm
Mombu 2012-04-17 21:04:32
Baseball hasn't been America's pastime except in a few Eastern cities in a long time. But it doesn't have much competition in the summer though.
Mombu 2012-04-17 21:04:35
The general population doesn't even know the name of the team, much less the player.
Mombu 2012-04-17 21:04:37
It doesn't matter whose fault it is. What matters is what needs to be done now and in the future.
Mombu 2012-04-17 21:04:39
He looks more white than black to me. He talks more white than black to me. It's his choice if he wants to be identified by race. It's his choice if the race he chooses is his father's. But NHL players don't object to much the press says, especially classy NHL players.
Owl 2012-04-17 21:04:43
uhhh, yea. We've been threading thoughts ever since the original. Got some?
Chris wright 2012-04-17 21:04:55
Sure. And that's just sad.
Buff 2012-04-17 21:05:02
Please point out these dirty tactics. He does not value What the h*** are you talking about?
Father guido 2012-04-17 21:05:21
-But there are lots of classy guys still, especially in -hockey. Like Buttugly?
Derf nerfherde 2012-04-17 21:05:27
I still think Lindros was bitten by the instant karma bug. Holding out as a rookie killed any respect I had for the guy and maybe the players in the league thought likewise. As far as saying Iginla has no class, you must seriously be sniffing some powerful glue. There is no better spoken player off the ice, and on the ice, if hitting and powering to the net are wrong, I don't wanna watch right.
Chris wright 2012-04-17 21:05:29
Ok: Iginla has far less class than many captains. Particularly, captains of good teams. e.g. Sakic, Yzerman, Naslund, Primeau, Koivu. He also has less class than he could. Basically, he doesn't care to have respect from his opponents, so he plays accordingly. The team that he plays with certainly doesn't help. The Flames must be one of the least-classy teams in the past decade.
Realto margari 2012-04-17 21:05:32
This is just really amateur trolling. Simple minded stuff. I don't mind a creative troll once in awhile but this is trivial. cordially, as always, rm
Rods news 2012-04-17 21:05:38
Make no mistake. Since I am a hockey fan first (and THEN an Oiler fan), I very much appreciate a hard working, well coached TEAM (effort). And besides ....... the flame d-man who left the building with a cast on (last night) is "related" in a round_about way 🙂
Rods news 2012-04-17 21:05:40
I think we have established that we definitely disagree on the def'n of brutatality as it applies to the said contact sport of hockey. I will agree that the Niemenen (sp??) hit on vinnie was borderline brutal (and well across the stupidity line), but outside of that particular hit, I've yet to witness anyuthing brutal in this series. Fair enough ................. but all I can say is that is the nature of the beast (i.e. the contact game itself). SOme very serious injuries result from "clean" hits (not unlike football as an eg.) It's pretty agreed Same with see reference to Gary Roberts and Brian MaCabe (I'll include Chris Chelios as well) I DISAGREE. Perhaps "in the eyes of the Yankee public" ... but SO WHAT !! I can plainly see that you and I may disagree ... but I canalso see that you and I could discuss this intelligently and at great length ... and probably be mutually satisfied with disagreeing. Do keep posting 🙂
Buff 2012-04-17 21:05:42
Open up your f****** eyes jackass.
Dos boot 2012-04-17 21:05:45
Sidius 2012-04-17 21:05:47
Holy c***!! Get your head out of your a**. Mark Messier just passed
Gordie Howe this year for 2nd most points in NHL history. Iginla
couldn’t carry his jockstrap. Messier, not Gretzky was the player who
often led the Oilers in the playoffs (I’m not necessarily talking points
here). As for points…saying Iginla’s numbers are similar to Messier’s
is ridiculous…Messier had 3 100+ point seasons and two 80+ point
seasons in his first 8, and that is with 2nd line ice time and 2nd-power
play ice time…the only low point total years he had were his rookie
year (3rd/4th line player) and one year he only played 55 games due to a
knee injury. Iginla in his 1st 8 years has only broken 80 points
once…and almost all of those years got as much prime ice time as he
Learn to cut through the playoff hipe, eh! Oh, I don’t recall if it was
you, but whoever said Gretzky called Iginla the league’s best player
before the Olympics is full of s***. Iginla wasn’t even invited to the
training camp at first, and was only invited in the end because of an
injury and because the camp was in Calgary and he could go on short notice!
Sidius 2012-04-17 21:05:50
D*** you’re a stupid troll!!!
Messier has led his team in scoring on several occasions. He also lead
the Oilers to the Cup in 1990 and two conference finals after that. As
for fighting, Messier could definitely fight and was feared because of
his nasty temper.
Realto margari 2012-04-17 21:05:52
This is false. Messier was a second line center who has never had
a decent plus-minus. He won only one Conn Smythe. Gretzky won 2.
Messier never led the league either in goal scoring or in points.
Iginla of course has done both.
You are obviously too young to remember Messier while with the
Oilers and you only remember him through NY Ranger hype.
cordially, as always,
Bombelly 2012-04-17 21:05:54
Mario r 2012-04-17 21:05:57
piffle Any player that loses desire so easily cuz Johnny over there isn't playing by what they think are the rules should go back to playin friggin recess soccer and not be in the Stanley Cup playoffs. Any team that collectively loses its desire so easily should be overhauled pronto. This was That's a load of c***. This is hockey not tiddlywinks. What player playing any advanced level of hockey has not accepted that there is some real heavy metal hitting involved. Additionally the Detroit team for example is paid extremely well to WIN and to overcome ANY adversity. They failed, they s*** the bed, 2 years running and the Overhaul should start there immediately. You keep talking Flames brutality and all I'm seeing for the most part is a Calgary team, that loves to deliver bone crunching hits while executing a consistently clinical display of their team system . You don't know me very well ! Brutal or physical? Big difference. brutal infers savage, cruel, connotations. I challenge the use of the term in this context. Just so you know Chris I have been very consistently outspoken about the problems I see with the NHL. About a year ago I became a regular on the Oil ng and started out by basically asking how, why, people continued to support the NHL product at all as I just couldn't see it. Particularly I queried why people would support the Oil anymore given the noted lack of success or even realistic expectation of any success. Not to mention their delivering a consistently substandard product on the ice that has ironically been priced inverse to their actual entertainment value. i.e. the best entertainment produced by the franchise was in the 80's when ticket prices were reasonable compared to todays high prices for an AHL-like product. Personally I have voted in the only way available to me as a fan by simply not purchasing the current product. I buy no tickets anymore, no souvenirs, pay for no games etc. The NHL recieves nil from me and thats my small protest. Still THIS is possibly the only type of fan strike protest that may ever accomplish any readjustment of the troubled NHL. Many former paying fans have done exactly the same but this hasn't been noticed due to ticket sales now largely being comprised of corporate, rather than individual purchase. Not sure what else I can really do other than being a grassroots critic. Frankly though the NHL could disappear tomorrow and I'd jump to whatever league replaced it immediately and with no second thoughts. Or I'd simply find something better to do with my time something which the NHL, NHLPA ought to consider since many baseball fans never bothered tuning in after similarly not caring anymore after a prolonged strike. Bring on a lengthy CBA the longer the better! Put me in the passively tolerant resigned camp if you want Chris but you couldn't be farther off the mark.
Mario r 2012-04-17 21:06:01
heh, I guess you're talking a prime of life Messier not the current version. While Mess was given always given a lot of space in his career this was due to his being a potentially dirty player that was well known to do whatever it took to win. He was hardly startling as a fighter and consistently backed down from many players that would've cleaned his clock. As I've mentioned before to see him against Otto for instance was comical as Mess would always back away slowly continuing to shoot off his mouth while making sure he was far enough away that Otto couldn't throttle him. In 1990 a young Jeremy Roenick tossed mess around like a rag doll and challenged him at every turn in a close playoff. Mess and Iggy are both cut of the same indomitable cloth. Reasonable, but not superstar skills combined with an insatiable will to go around, over, through, the opposition in their quest to score. I'd pick iggy in a dust-up. Especially with his helmet on ;-P
Rod gramlich 2012-04-17 21:06:04
Chris, Have you ever considered taking up watching tennis ??? (gone are the days of John McCenroe sp?? .... god love him 🙂 You just seem to have this vision of a non-contact NHL, where the boys skate around high_fiving one another (AND the opposition), discussing family holidays, and arranging fishing trips while lined up for a face_off. That's just not right !!! ____________________________________________________________________________ ________
Chris_selley 2012-04-17 21:06:06
I still think the "another career" thing is a little far-fetched, certainly among the irreplaceables in the NHL. A few guys are fleeing for Europe already, as you've pointed out, for various reasons (families don't like it here, competitive salaries, supposedly unbearable clutching/grabbing/bone rattling). And you're right: a year-long strike would obviously send more guys overseas, and some might not come back. But the root causes of this (extremely minor) exodus have nothing to do with the strike, and fixing them is either impossible or apparently not within the NHL's meagre capabilities. I'll buy the talent development angle, sure, but assuming we're back in business for October 2005, everyone's going to be on a level playing field. The hit will have been taken, no question, but seeing it with your own eyes should be pretty tough once things get going. If guys are "replaced for cost" then they'll have priced themselves out of the entire marketplace and refused to back down - I'll go ahead and blame any such outcomes on mule-stupid players and agents, not on "the strike." That could happen now, and already has in some cases (Dafoe). Conditioning, age, spite... again, all a level playing field, could happen any summer. Once the rust wears off - and that will only really apply to the few guys who weren't playing at all - I just can't see the product in 2005 being much less competitive than what it was. That's if they bite the bullet(s) and enact serious change. Personally, I just don't see them having the b****/brains/foresight/patience to come up with something significantly enough different from the current regime to change the game to the extent you're talking about. I would be jaw-on-the-floor shocked to see a hard salary cap instituted right off the bat. It's not just the big-money owners who should be against it - it's the union and the league itself, for the exact reason of the crazy instability it will create. Having Mats Sundin and dozens of others making roughly a third of the allowable team payroll is... not good for business. I'm all for them phasing in a system where drafting and player development rule, but this is a league that can't call hooking properly for more than 15 games in a row. I'll believe it when I see it. The price swings between here and there are and will continue to be enormous. Yeah, okay, Tverdovsky is supposedly making 2.5 and Yushky a million, but that's just a couple of players and a couple of contracts. It's not like Dynamo is beating down doors in Red Deer and Ornskoldsvik. From what I've read, a couple of the top Russian teams might spend something approaching the unlikely 30-million figure that gets thrown around as the potential hard cap. But a) they spend it on Russians; b) you have to live in Russia; and c) also from what I've read, many of these teams (with some exceptions, Omsk/Tverdovsky among them) are run by an assortment of ridiculously shady frontier businessmen, most of whom could be imprisoned or "disappeared" at a moment's notice. Stability is something of an issue. So yes, there's a risk that a few stars like Ovechkin might be tempted to stay home by a big offer, but really, what can you do? Competition - sure it is. Serious competition? I'm not really buying it. Not 'f*** em' exactly... more like 'f*** it'. My position is simply this: the NHL is poorly run, and pretty much FUBAR. I think it's pure folly to attempt to hammer out a new labour agreement when the NHLPA position is "everything's great!" and the NHL position is "let's find a way to make the NHL as it currently exists financially viable." Both are retarded positions to take. Obviously, everything is not great. There are numerous teams in markets where no one, and I mean no one, plays the game -- find me another respected and/or successful sports league in the world where that works. Not only does no one give a d***, there's very little hope of anyone ever giving a d***. Why work to preserve such a system when it's clearly untenable to begin with? I doubt the motives, I doubt the plan and I doubt the people attempting to implement whatever the plan is. I'll miss NHL hockey, a lot, but I think a blowup like this is necessary for the NHL to have any long-term future and I refuse to worry about the quality of the game on the ice once the strike is over. About 45% of NHL hockey is unwatchable now, for heaven's sake. The on-ice problems will remain no matter what the new CBA says. For now I'm hoping for the best and confident in the worst, and I'm holding my World Cup tickets close to my chest.
Mombu 2012-04-17 21:06:08
and when Iginla entered the league the game was changing pointwise.
Pre-Inginla there were a fair number of players that were scoring 50+
goals and/or 100 or more points per season. Those totals are rarities these days.
Mombu 2012-04-19 14:20:13
His averaged about 20+ during his Edmonton years. A tad bit higher
with the first go around with New York. IMO that is decent.
Owl 2012-04-19 14:20:16
On 7 Jun 2004 08:00:56 -0700, firstname.lastname@example.org
Try focusing on the bubble players, the black aces, and the guys in
the pipe. Think about the more senior ‘AHLers’. Losing their spot
for a year, means some will make the decision to switch careers. Or continents.
The impending strikeout, the uncertainty of next contract, and the
money on a next contract – is very definitely a factor in why the
trickle of names is turning into a daily dribble. The latest is
Nikolishin from the Avs – off to Moscow CSKA for about the same
$1.75mil as he made with the Avs.
I wouldn’t choose the term ‘level playing field’. I’d go with fresh
mix leading to unknown and uncertain outcomes.
Yea, I’ve got my built-in attitudes and there’s a temptation to take
sides. Whatever gets ya through, I spose. From here, there’s some
truth, and a lot of spin, that could paint anyone and everyone
involved with getting things here. The shape and scope of
restructuring/repositioning the NHL means pain for everyone – and
they’re arguing over how the pain gets spread around.
It will be. Teams are organic, adjusted to fuzzy but regognizable
profiles, tweaked to bring in guys that fit and ship out guys that
don’t. Good working lines and d-pairs emerge from countless
experiments. There’s gonna be a lot of ‘lasting pre-season’ look to
an NHL that’s had a year off.
If they don’t for the sake of avoiding a strikeout, the League is
gonna carry black-eyes around with continuing headlines about
franchises in trouble. The serious big-money losers (Edmonton,
Pittsburgh, Washington, L.A., Carolina, St. Louis, San Jose, Phoenix –
a lot of those teams have drawn a line in the sand and said ‘no deal
unless it’s a working deal’.)
Again, it’s the NHLPA that says the NHL is demanding a hard cap.
As well, you’ve painted the huge cost retrenchment in fairly friendly
words. I’m not with you for simply ‘blaming’ any of the stakeholders.
Everyone, including fans who want/demand something (and sweep the
cost-issues off their table of desires) – gets a bit of the tarbrush
on this one.
That’s a disconnected argument – the ref n rules stuff belongs in
You’ve built in an assumption about what will be done with current
contracts, and how they’ll be ‘counted’. You’ve gone back to the
NHLPA claim of hard cap. I’d wait for some details.
I don’t think we’re gonna hear much more than bluff and bravado until
How many players will be floating around unsigned? How many guys
turn down qualification offers AND arbitration (the big holdout)? How
many draft choices run for a pen while they can still get a
current-rules contract (with all those bonuses)? How many get offers?
We don’t know. That’s the difference between the NHLPA and an actual
union – the players will be deciding individually on how much strength
goes into Goodenow’s position. His real strength is built around the
core of the top 50 or so contracts – that’s the high-risk group.
How many teams will make the decision that one last big spree is the
right move? How many franchises will look at the shape of a year
without income, and probably an erosion of their fan-base … and
We don’t know. That’s the difference between the NHL and an actual
corporation with 30 division-heads. Right now the trend is toward the strikeout support.
I submit that the trend going that way is something to watch and
count. Losing a guy off the Red Deer roster means squat – losing NHL
regulars, with a choice, does mean something. Keep your tuner on
Forsberg, Kariya, and Selanne; maybe pay attention to what goes on
with interest in Alexei Kovalev.
Geez, you talk about shady characters like it’s a bad thing, or an
Russia is building stronger hockey teams. Owners are entering the
sugar-daddy era. Regular NHLers are ‘going home’.
It’s about swings and tilts in the talent pool. Don’t use the
Ovechkin example – use the Yushk’s, Tverdovsky’s, Markov’s, and
Nikolishin’s. Those aren’t minor-leaguers, and when it’s time to pay
them within their price-performance of $1mil-$1.5mil … they’ve ‘gone home’.
Not unusual. I expect will see a flood of this attitude in October if
a strikeout comes. Expect the whole hay-load – reduce the number of
teams, glad the blood-suckers are gone, bring the game home where it belongs, yadayadayada.
Again that’s out of a media spin. Stuff I’ve seen from Goodenow & Co.
agrees that there’s problems, thinks the Levitt Report is over-stated,
and rejects a position that says players have to take the entire hit.
In corner #3 are agents who will have less raison d’etre if the cost
of an agent doesn’t make much difference.
The last part is the one I’m tuning on. Agents make their big names
and money off the largest contracts. Those are the contracts most
likely to melt away in the ‘new deal’. (maybe they’ll be replaced by Intuit QuickAgent).
Not sure what you’re saying here. Everyone’s been playing the game –
but they may have been playing the wrong game. What appears certain
is that the underlying growth expectations haven’t panned out, and now
they’re at the point where something has to be done about it, and can
be done about it.
Seriously, if no one gave a d*** they’d slap a CBA together and
proceed to ignore it just like the last few years of this CBA.
The reason it could go into a year+ abyss is because everyone is a
major stakeholder, and cares to the level of survival. The impact
magnitude of league repositioning and restructuring affects the entire
spectrum – right down to what us fans see and hope for.
tee hee – the strength of your statement reads like you really do care.
We sure differ there. I’ve had an easier time watching more good
hockey the last few years – not just the Leafs. The second half of
HNIC used to be a ‘by the way’ time … this year it had games that
outdid the early show.
Again, different issue, different thread – very valid, and some
serious stuff to work on. However, right now the top article is
strikeout and finances.
I’ll watch the thunderheads as a curiosity until August. When it
finally gets there, with cards on the table, we’ll get a better idea
of who’s zoomin’ who.
Bombelly 2012-04-19 14:20:19
< snipped >
Oh I agree with all you say, except using ‘ Iggy ‘ for Iginla. There
was only one IGGY, and that’s our Larionov ! 🙂 Well he used to
be ‘ ours ‘. 🙁
But yes, Iginla would have to not only wear a helmet, he’d have to
have a full face shield, throat guard, chest protector, kidney pads,
double up on the cup, and full wrap around leg pads. Messier was
scary because he was / is a dirty b****** with no conscience. The
guy couldn’t even end his career without a spear. That’s why I picked
him over Iginla, he’d find some way to use his stick, and if he didn’t
have a stick he’d kick him or head b*** him, something dirty for sure.
Chris wright 2012-04-19 14:20:23
You know, I used to think like you do. I used to think that a hard-hitting,
violent, vicious game was really in the spirit of hockey. Then, I started
having a care for the players. It’s really as simple as that. If you’re able
to dehumanize the players of the opposing team, the team you’re not cheering
for, then of course you’re going to be quite content with the current state
of the game, and you’re not going to have a problem with teams like the
Flames. You’re going to think that injuries are perfectly normal, perfectly
acceptable. Well, all I can say is that I find such attitudes *sickening*.
Mario r 2012-04-19 14:20:27
Being that everybody as per usual is disagreeing with you and your use of
total snipping I’m not clear you were responding to me but I’ll take it
Don’t give yourself credit!
I used to think that a hard-hitting,
Where are you seeing all these violent, vicious, games Chris? New league?
Extreme Hockey? S***, I wanna subscribe! Then, I started
Having a care? You hearing violins Chris? These guys are paid millions to
be present day versions of gladiators. In a heavily contested physical, high
speed, potentially dangerous, sport some pain and injury is inevitable.
It’s really as simple as that. If you’re able
H*** I agree with your assessment of me for once. I’ve dehumanized most of
the NHLPA membership by now. Greedy f****!
the team you’re not cheering
I’m not content with the current state of the game. Did I say I was? How is
this not clear? Am I responding to your response to somebody else?
and you’re not going to have a problem with teams like the
Teams like the flames!? Your contempt of them is clear in your wording yet
you claim objectivity when I challenged you on said nucks allegiance
You’re going to think that injuries are perfectly normal, perfectly
In hockey they are! Especially given the strength , size, speed, increases
of the players who are made to play within the same rink confines despite
the significant change in size. You couldn’t play a game of hockey without
risk of injury Chris its the nature of the beast. Do you close your eyes
when they show football hilites?
I find your lily livered attitude towards hockey more offensive. ..
Chris wright 2012-04-19 14:20:30
I rest my case.
Owl 2012-04-19 14:20:35
Try not to let your case crush your gladiola’s.
Mario r 2012-04-19 14:20:38
You have no case.
Note I said present day versions of……. Not gladiators perse as our
society is *somewhat* more civilized/enlightened than in the lion-feeding
days. Still people want their sports entertainment complete with the
Chris I encourage you to watch the game tonight, big screen surround sound,
turn it up, down a few beer, get excited and see if you don’t start enjoying
the beautiful sound of crashing n banging n boards rattling. Thats the
intensity! Thats the buzz! Thats the sound of playoffs you hear! Alternately
you can continue to sit on your hands and hate it and the flames.
ps. note that every player on the ice is having the time of their lives and
would gladly sacrifice, expose themselves to injury, take chances and its
all worth it just for them to be there. Any of the other teams like Detroit
that you theorize just opted out cuz they didn’t like playing with those
darned flames would also give, sacrifice a lot, just to be here. Both of the
teams earned the right to be here playing in a Stanley Cup final game 7 and
your attempts to discredit one of the teams involved is just childish
jeolous rubbish disguised as contempt.
Sidius 2012-04-19 14:20:41
Yes, please tell me where I mentioned the Conn Smythe above. The Conn
Smythe is voted on by media….no more explanation needed.
Iginla tied this year…scoring how many goals? As far as leading the
league in points that one year…lucky…that year every other prominent
scorer in the league either had an off year or was injured (see Jagr) As
I said, Messier seldom had 1st line ice time and yet he still scored
over 50 goals in a season.
You obviously haven’t taken your head out of your a**. I am from
Edmonton, grew up there, have watched Oilers games (often in person)
since 1974. I saw the Gretzky/Messier/Kurri et al. Oilers far more than
most (if not all) in this newsgroup. When you know what the f*&^ you are
talking about, post again. You are obviously too stupid to see through
the media hype that is swirling around your tiny head.
Sidius 2012-04-19 14:20:45
Early in his career Messier had a few fights and beat the c*** out of
the guys he faced. That has as much to do with the space he got as any
other reason (very strong and fast = momentum, occasional elbow that got
out of control 😉 …as for spearing…I don’t remember any other
occasion than the last one with the Rangers…please educate me)
Realto margari 2012-04-19 14:20:49
Well, no, Messier never did score more than 50 goals in a season.
Please get your facts straight.
That’s really interesting. You are saying that _I_ am a victim of
media hype because I claim that Messier is overrated by the media?
cordially, as always,
Bombelly 2012-04-19 14:20:52
I know he won some fights early, but fights don’t keep guys off you,
what does, and did for Messier, was his stick and the knowledge he
was psycho enough to use it. The same reason guys didn’t do Clarke
When he was here in Vancouver, even when he should have been
enjoying elder statesman status, he couldn’t resist giving guys the
stick, almost always away from the play and undetected by the ref.
Sidius 2012-04-19 14:20:55
Semantics, he scored 50. Name me one other player that did…oh,
yeah…Glenn Anderson…gee, who was his centre. Messier in his prime
was way better than Iginla is now…having said that, Iginla may develop
into as good a player…and if he can keep it going for as long as
Messier did, then good for him (his is another good Edmonton boy
afterall..and don’t give me any s*** about both of them being from St.
Albert, it is part of the Metro Edmonton area (virtually no space between the cities))
Yes…how long has Iginla been in Cowtown? If he was so good he would
have dragged that team kicking and screaming into the playoffs. Until
the last couple of years, Iginla has been a very inconsistent
player…Messier overcame that after about his 1st 2 seasons, not 5.
Realto margari 2012-04-19 14:21:03
Mombu 2012-04-19 14:21:11
You can’t compare goals scored then and goals scored now without some kind
of adjustment for deflation.
Scotty 2012-04-19 14:21:16
If you’re going to base your comparison on points, you’re misguided. The
league has changed. In Messier’s prime, there were several 50 goal scorers
per year. Now there may be several years between 50 goal scorers. Messier
played on the most most prolific goal scoring team in history. Iginla plays
on a somewhat lesser offensive threat. Messier may beat Iginla in a scrap,
but only because he’s slighty more dirty than Iginla. Overall, I’d pick
Iginla over Messier for my all-star team.
Chris wright 2012-04-19 14:21:19
You sound like an intelligent guy, and I’m sure we’re in agreement on 99% of
hockey-related issues. That is to say, I have no problems with a physical
game. In fact, the more bone-jarring hits, the better.
It’s just that I take great exception to a team, like Calgary, that, for
example, in the Stanley Cup final, made three, really nasty, really violent
plays along the boards:
Niemennan on Lecavalier
Regher (iirc) on Fedetenko
and the last one tonight, on St. Louis.
There’s something desperately wrong with a team so willing to injure, as
well as fans who’ll try to dismiss such misdeeds as just being ‘part of the
game’. C’mon, give me that much won’t you? =P
Mario r 2012-04-19 14:21:22
Glad to hear it. I thought the game tonight was excellent all round and a
classic match-up of different styles with ultimately the better, more
talented, team winning. Tampa was more effective through most of the game and earned it IMO.
Agreed, a classless play and one of the knocks on Niemennan is this type of stupid s***.
Regehr is hard nosed but AFAIK does not normally or at least intently engage
in this type of play.
This one a result of overenthusiasm and the absolute desperation of the
moment in the waning seconds. I’m glad things calmed down and sanity
returned. For a moment it looked like it might become totally unglued and
Iggy again showed an unfortunate side but one I feel is a result of his
unbridled passion. Not making excuses but to factor in how much is at stake
explains a little. While I’m not excusing the above mentioned events a 7
game series played with intensity is going to have some dangerous moments.
To put it into perspective its really like looking at one out of a hundred
checks being ill advised. One can look at the ones that were dirty
exclusively or take them in the context of all the hits that were delivered
that were good hits. A team that depends on the physical play is going to
occasionally cross the line by the very nature of that dependence. You get
used to looking at the opposition with a target on their back and it makes
it hard to momentarily self-correct when the questionable check is there.
This is where we disagree. You see this Calgary team as playing like the
70’s Broadstreet bullies and I see them trying to pull of more of a lo-cost
NYI impression. I realize in advance this comparison is weak but I don’t put
Calgary in any other particular Anaheim or Minny slot. But I don’t see them
as a dirty team intent on injury. More a team that tends to injure as a
side effect of their tendency to engage in ultra-physical play and finish
EVERY check thats there. as
You are right in thinking we are not as far apart on hockey as it would
appear in this thread. Being an Oiler follower Tampa’s style of play and the
manner in which they won is of course more attractive to me. Watching these
young guns flying out there making incredible plays under intense pressure
was eerily reminescent. Ultimately I would like an NHL where the Offensive
talent would be allowed to shine but the league just doesn’t take measures
to reinforce that. Ultimately it has profoundly effected the entertainment
value of the game and tonight it was evident as Calgary with only one world
class forward could not match the collection of talented players on the
Owl 2012-04-19 14:21:25
You’ve dragged out some spurious comparisons to diss the team with.
The Flames didn’t play like the 70s team from Filly. Get a friggin’
Mario r 2012-04-19 14:21:28
Read my post one more time including the actually quoted part and you might
discover who the goof is. Learn to read and get back to me on that.
Owl 2012-04-19 14:21:32
It’s you. You pulled the comparison in – and tagged it on another
poster when he hadn’t written that.
Mario r 2012-04-19 14:21:35
???…….Shakes head, adjusts monitor, looks at screen again…..grabs
tylenol bottle just in case…… Look if its not already abundantly clear I
was supporting, not slamming Calgary vs. another poster who WAS slamming the
flames. Additionally I was not in the least (like never, negatory etc, means
NOT!!!!!!is it clear yet? god I hope so) comparing Calgary to Philly I was
just surmising for sake of argument that the other poster WAS seeing it that
way given that he was calling them brutal, violent, Genghis Khan, etc. so I
wasn’t taking any real liberties there. Apparently in your world if I
mention GeorgeBush and well just about anything in the same sentence
regardless of context, syntax, sentence structure, clear meaning, actual
words used, I’m a terrorist so send out the FBI!!! You will hopefully one
day eventually note I was comparing the flames to the NYI’s, oh thats the
good 1980-83NYI’s just to be precise. Until then please go away!
Chris_selley 2012-04-19 14:21:39
No argument. All I’m saying is name players aren’t going to “switch
careers.” They might switch leagues.
Of course those are factors. What I’m saying is that there’s nothing
the NHL can really do about them except try to hammer out the right
deal as quickly as possible. So there’s not much point in the NHL
worrying about it, and given that a quick resolution looks unlikely,
certainly no point in MY worrying about it.
I’m sticking with ‘level playing field’, because that’s what it is.
Everyone loses a year (or however long) and comes back and tries to
put the biscuit in the basket, just like before.
Just sounds way overblown to me, but we’re well into the realm of
conjecture/opinion on both sides here.
I think we’re arguing two different points. You’re saying “a lockout
is going to hurt the NHL product, but a viable new deal has to get
done.” And I’m saying “I think the lockout is going to hurt the NHL
product less than owl does, and a viable new deal has to get done;
however, I doubt very much the abilities of the parties concerned to
do such a thing quickly, and since I can’t affect this situation in
any way I’m not going to worry about it.”
I know it’s the NHLPA talking hard cap. I’m saying the hard cap is
unlikely for the purposes of disputing your worry that lots of players
will suddenly be going overseas to make the same money as they did
before in the NHL. The “30 million hard cap” would still put NHL teams
way above 99% of the other hockey teams in the world.
Just because I think all sides are comprised largely of mental
defectives doesn’t mean I’m blaming them necessarily. Mistakes, mostly
honest ones, have been made all around: Bettman and the league for
overexpanding (honest); the owners for spending more than they earn,
and then complaining that they’re losing money (bad business); and the
players union for ignoring the PR/mediot nightmare that is millionaire
hockey players in a labour battle (PR is obviously not their focus).
I’m not playing a blame game. I’m explaining the source of my pessimism is all.
Don’t think so. People and organizations with a history of not
following through on commitments are less likely to follow through on
the next one, no?
I’m saying that the “hard cap, right now, a buck is a buck” scenario
is very unlikely, to go along with my overall feeling that the new NHL
really won’t be all that different. I only chose it as one very
different scenario. I’m not buying its probability.
So… have a caesar, wait and see? I think we’re pretty much on the same page here.
I meant they’re not going to be luring top North American or Swedish
prospects in the near future. It’s certainly something to watch and
count, but it’s not a matter of just money in any of the cases you
listed above. Forsberg leaving (if he does) has nothing to do with
money – hope he doesn’t go. Kariya, Selanne, Kovalev… well, they’re
all coming off bad (and partially redeemed, in Kova’s case) seasons
and might want to resuscitate/prolong their careers in Europe. All
three could probably get comparable money. I wish them well. Given
that I would rather have had Shean Donovan than Kariya or Selanne this
past season, I just don’t see why this should worry me.
Heh. Larry Tanenbaum doesn’t go around with armed guards, owl. A guy
like Kariya or Selanne going to play hockey in Russia isn’t just about
buying a new condo and putting the kids in the international school.
It’s a wholesale and not altogether pleasant lifestyle change. I can’t
see the Russian league enticing too many top-flight non-Russians, even
for comparable money, for just that reason. H***, I’m sure most
Russians would think twice.
Like 5 of them have, none of them superstars. Fare thee well. Bon
voyage. What can you do?
Tverdovsky was a 7th D/minor leaguer when he left. He would never,
ever have gotten 2.5 from an NHL club. Kudos to Omsk for ponying up
and getting their man. Go Omsk Go.
The rest aren’t minor-leaguers, no, but owl… Andrei Nikolishin? I
mean, who cares? And I don’t mean “who cares, good riddance to the
money-grubbing Euro scumbag,” I just mean… “who cares?” Not angry at
Niko, just uninterested in Niko.
Oh, p*** off. I know my a** from a hole in the ground.
Right-o. So let’s watch and see what happens.
When I say I refuse to worry about it, it’s because I’m confident that
it won’t be that different.
Agree. Two years ago I’d have put the figure at around 60%.
You linked the two yourself in saying that the strike is going to
change the product on the ice when it’s over. I’m disagreeing.
Chris wright 2012-04-19 14:21:41
Alright, a final question:
If the Flames made it into the playoffs next year, would you like to see
them play more-or-less the same brand of painful-to-play-against hockey as
they did this year, or would you prefer to see them venture a little more
towards the skill side of the game?
Mario r 2012-04-19 14:21:44
Definitely skill side of the game. CBA will decide the likelihood of this
Sidius 2012-04-19 14:21:49
My comparison is not based on points…that was one of the issues I
examined. Having seen both play, I just don’t see Iginla (at least not
yet) at the same level of domination as Messier was for much of his
career. The difference in points is probably about what it should be
given the different eras. However, Messier got his with 2nd line ice
time. That is my main point. Messier also dominated games physically at
a far higher level than Iginla has, especially over longer stretches of
games. Iginla has had some dominating performances, but nowhere near
the number and quality that was seen from Messier in his prime.
Take the 7th game of the finals last night for example…Messier would
have dragged his team on his back and dominated like he did in ’94’s 7th
game or in the (can’t recall which) 3rd or 4th game agains the Islanders
in ’84. In those games he was huge and simply wouldn’t let his team
lose…much like Ethan Moreau was doing in the last 23 games of this
season for the Oilers (Messier-lite, if you will).
Owl 2012-04-19 14:21:53
You’re missing something then. Iginla is the complete package. Eight
years in he’s ahead of where Messier was eight year in, imo.
uhhh, disagree. Given the different eras, Iginla is ahead of that.
Guys have to fight through tougher systems of D and goalies that could
be mistaken for halloween sasquatches. This ain’t then, and Iginla is
better now than Messier was then.
Exactly. Messier was 2nd line. When he tried to move up to be the
team bismark, it didn’t always work. Iginla hasn’t missed a beat so
far – he’s risen to the challenge of expectations, evolution,
leadership, and skills addition. They’re both d*** fine players in
their peak years.
The only thing missing for Iginla is the time it takes to keep doing
it again. He’s done above and beyond for putting the flame back into Calgary hockey.
Messier had been a professional for 14 years at that point.
Go check the damage Iginla did getting Calgary there … and down to
the 7th game. He and Kipper were the BMOCs. And Iginla carried the
load when the team was energetic but disorganized. I can never
remember putting up with a game because Messier was playing … I have
done that when Iginla was playing.
Yea, and Iginla pulled his team along all season – Mr. Finish.
Sidius 2012-04-19 14:21:58
opinion only, I disagree, so we can agree to disagree
I am referring to the years he was in Edmonton before Gretzky
left…after Gretzky left, Messier won an MVP as an Oiler, POOF!! there
goes your argument that he didn’t rise to
Go check how many shots Iginla had in the last 2 games….do you really
think Messier didn’t have to fight through tough/dirty checking in the
playoffs!! (actually Iginla is lucky he doesn’t have to play against the
Lames, otherwise he’d still be unconscious!)
Congrats, I didn’t say he didn’t have a good season, but you’ll never
convince me he is better than Messier at the same age
Mombu 2012-04-19 14:22:01
Whatever they do, Sutter will do his best to tell us that we are all
conspiring against him.
Chris wright 2012-04-19 14:22:08
Is it just me or does Sutter seem to have a touch of Down’s Syndrome?
Buff 2012-04-19 14:22:10
No, just you do.
Lonnie 2012-04-19 14:22:13
I still say he looks like Beaker from the Muppet show.
Fred muddles 2012-04-19 14:22:23
Good hockey and millionaire players DON’T MIX. end of story
On Thu, 3 Jun 2004 15:14:16 -0400, “truebs”
upchucked the following:
Rod gramlich 2012-04-19 14:22:26
That MAY WELL BE the bottom line. Many will look at the above statement
and roll their eyes, but I fully understand what Fred is suggesting.
Lost in cybers 2012-04-19 14:22:53
Now I have to post, I was beginning to think no one else had noticed his
assenine display. I lost a lot of respect for him there. I think he is a d***
good player, and since he is the only serious scorer on his team he
manages to get most of the goals and overall points scored – hence the
Rocket Richard and Art Ross thophies. If the Flamers (no offence to any
alternate lifestyle types intended) had two or three more upper echelon
players fighting for goals I don’t think Iginla would have come close to
winning those trophies.
More on topic – I don’t think the players realize the biggest difference between
their sport and the other big three. How many pairs of hockey skates will a
big name endorsment sell in July? I know that most kids wear their Air Jordans
(if they can afford them) year round, but the Bauer hockey skates (if they have
any interest in skating) they got for Christmas gather dust at least two thirds of
the year. And that football is just as much fun to throw in February as it is in
August, as opposed to that official NHL puck that doesn’t slide on the sidewalk
very well. The real money coming in for players and teams is spectator, not
product endorsement. I am a Red Wings fan, win or lose, and I can’t afford to
go to the games. Part of this is because they have to pay the overpriced (in
my opinion) players, and of course the (what I percieve to be) overpayed upper
management. I don’t like being priced out of a sport I love, but bigger payouts
raise costs and the fan is the one to suffer.
Some feel that ESPN failed the NHL but would success have been better?
I enjoy NASCAR auto racing. A similar pricing problem has occurred there,
except in this case, the push from TV sponsorships was successful. Now
demand is so high track owners can charge just about anything for the seats
and fill them all. Simpson helmets aren’t any better off than hockey skates,
sticks, pads, or gloves as far as the general public is concerned, but maybe
you’ve heard of some of NASCAR’s year round selling sponsors like DeWalt,
Goodyear, V*****, Dupont, Coca-Cola, Quaker State, Budweiser, Caterpiller,
Mr. Goodwrench, Home Depot (by the way, is that the same company as
Renot Depot?), Lowes, DeWalt, Pepsi, Staples, Miller Lite, UPS, etc. and of
course Ford, Chevrolet, Dodge, and Nextel. I think players need to consider
a pay cut, as long as it goes to the fans that are actually paying their salaries.
No season would drive fans to smaller market teams or other sports, and I
would rather pay $25 for a great AHL seat than $25 for a nosebleed NHL
seat at a game where the players and owners have forgotten their fans.
ME (too tired to care if this makes any sense to anyone…)
Lost in cybers 2012-04-23 06:38:42
I believe that should read unsportmanlike play. I don’t know how anyone can
believe Niemenin when he says the running Cujo was an accident, the footage
shows him look at Joseph, and then change direction in order to collide with
him. Same thing with the hit on Lecavalier. He didn’t intend to hurt him. I think
he might need glasses, he was only going to slow down when he got to where
the boards would be on an olympic rink, as in after he went through Vincent.
ME (too tired to care if this makes any sense to anyone…)
Lost in cybers 2012-04-23 06:38:44
Hey a****** – Steve Moore? Todd Bertuzzi ok by you? You like his style?
Is that your idea of buzz? Ville Niemenin plays the same way. That kind of
c*** is brutality, not quality hard hitting hockey.
ME (too tired to give a s*** whether I p*** you off…)
Lost in cybers 2012-04-23 06:38:45
Who says they’re not?
ME (too tired to care if this makes sense to anyone else…)
Lost in cybers 2012-04-23 06:38:48